Understanding God’s election

[brightfame52]

You have a habit of [intentionally] spelling surely wrong.

Thanks for the link. I know you use that site but the links provide some certainty we can see what you're seeing. A couple comments:

• You said the word literally means to drag. This doesn't say that and it places no more literal emphasis on drag than draw.
• Did you read the Thayer's Lexicon linked on that page?
• Did you read the commentary at the Trench's Synonyms link on that page?
• None of these support the drag view.

• So, progressive revelation means Jesus is changing the basic context of the verse and section of Scripture He is drawing upon to base His instruction on? You really want to make this argument? If you'd have read the Trench's linked on your reference page you'd see the reference to Jer31:3 with a similar concept of drawing vs. dragging. I think Jesus is well versed in Scripture and the character of God, so, yes, I trust His leading the way I read His Word and how He and others drew from the Hebrew Scriptures.

The rest of your points I'll pass on after glancing briefly at them. Too much rabbit-trail diversions.

Did we resolve drawing and dragging or coming and believing or Jesus post crucifixion > ascension drawing all [men] or any other tradition-based beliefs you have? How about any Greek issues - did we get anywhere on those other than you ungraciously conceding that @PaulThomson and I were correct and you were wrong about pantas being translated as "all [men]"?

The drawing denotes two things, #1 its for a select group, the elect, for the word draw helkō is akin to haireō :

1. to take for oneself, to prefer, choose
2. to choose by vote, elect to office

The same word used for chosen in 2 Thess 2:13

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath G138 ➔ from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

So the subjects of the drawing are the ones the Fahter has chosen,

Also helko means to persuade,

To draw, to drag
Meaning: I drag, draw, pull, persuade, unsheathe.

I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, John 12:32. Cf. Meyer on John 6:44;

to persuade is to cause to believe, Faith

The word believe/faith pistis is from the root peithō :

persuade

1. to persuade, i.e. to induce one by words to believe

So the drawn in both Jn 6:44 and 12:32 are all who are brought to Faith/to believe in Christ, Drawing is the giving of the Gift of Faith by the power of God

 

[brightfame52]

@John146

God’s elect is Jesus Christ. Election is to service, never salvation.

False because its a half truth, sure Jesus Christ is Gods elect, but so is His Body the church, they are inseparably one as husband and wife , and the service they are chosen to is spiritual service from salvation, his seed that serves Him Heb 9:14

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Ps 22:30-31


30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

Half truths are the most deceptive

 

[John146]

@John146



False because its a half truth, sure Jesus Christ is Gods elect, but so is His Body the church, they are inseparably one as husband and wife , and the service they are chosen to is spiritual service from salvation, his seed that serves Him Heb 9:14

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Ps 22:30-31


30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

Half truths are the most deceptive

Service is our labor for the Lord in our body. We will be judged by our labor. Rewards are at stake. Come back from this RCC false teaching.

 

[HeIsHere]

I know. It doesn't matter to them. They (most of them)want the "intellectual" debate. And are great at it.

But the POINT in it all.........."You can't choose Christ." That is the premise. That is the point.

When I say "Let that sink in".........Let that sink in! It is sinister.

They are great at it for sure, tons of books, writings, podcasts, blogs to explain away the words of Christ Jesus and Paul.

Indeed, there are tremendous implications for this false doctrine of selection.

 

[fredoheaven]

The drawing denotes two things, #1 its for a select group, the elect, for the word draw helkō is akin to haireō :

1. to take for oneself, to prefer, choose
2. to choose by vote, elect to office

The same word used for chosen in 2 Thess 2:13

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath G138 ➔ from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

So the subjects of the drawing are the ones the Fahter has chosen,

Correct me if I am wrong but you are quoting Strong's incorrectly. Strongs asserts only as "probably akin to haireō G138" which speaks likely but not certainly. Chances are when one quotes differently, it literally means a different thing. Here is your quote by the way:
"for the word draw helkō is akin to haireō :"

 

[brightfame52]

Service is our labor for the Lord in our body. We will be judged by our labor. Rewards are at stake. Come back from this RCC false teaching.

Sorry, you gave a half truth which is misleading

 

[brightfame52]

Correct me if I am wrong but you are quoting Strong's incorrectly. Strongs asserts only as "probably akin to haireō G138" which speaks likely but not certainly. Chances are when one quotes differently, it literally means a different thing. Here is your quote by the way:
"for the word draw helkō is akin to haireō :"

Yep I quoting strongs, and the word akin is essentially similar, related, or compatible The ones being drawn are His Sheep. Jn 10 Dont seperate Jn 6 and 12 from Jn 10 which specifically identifies who Jesus draws to himself, Jn 10:16

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd

The word bring agō :

To move, impel: of forces and influences on the mind

Thats a synonym to draw which means:

1. metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, John 12:32

And this relates to His Chosen Sheep.

This conclusion is scriptural and contextual.

 

[studier]

The drawing denotes two things, #1 its for a select group, the elect, for the word draw helkō is akin to haireō :

1. to take for oneself, to prefer, choose
2. to choose by vote, elect to office

It's nice that you are using some reference material. Please post a link to it. helkō & haireō are two very different words.

Also helko means to persuade,

To draw, to drag
Meaning: I drag, draw, pull, persuade, unsheathe.

I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, John 12:32. Cf. Meyer on John 6:44;

to persuade is to cause to believe, Faith

The word believe/faith pistis is from the root peithō :

persuade

1. to persuade, i.e. to induce one by words to believe

So the drawn in both Jn 6:44 and 12:32 are all who are brought to Faith/to believe in Christ, Drawing is the giving of the Gift of Faith by the power of God

Same request. Please post a link to such things. Going from a figurative definition of a Greek word in English to making that English word the base of another Greek word is unsound practice to put it mildly.

 

[NOV25]

It's nice that you are using some reference material. Please post a link to it. helkō & haireō are two very different words.





Same request. Please post a link to such things. Going from a figurative definition of a Greek word in English to making that English word the base of another Greek word is unsound practice to put it mildly.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/ The blue letter bible is a great tool for looking at the Greek and Hebrew etc. it's free.

Strong's concordance app is also free on the iPhone...

 

[Magenta]

They are great at it for sure, tons of books, writings, podcasts, blogs to explain away the words of Christ Jesus and Paul.

Indeed, there are tremendous implications for this false doctrine of selection.

I wonder how many times you have told us how unfair God is.

And how many times do you suppose you have applauded such ideas as,
God is kidnapping people against their will if/when He acts unilaterally?

 

[studier]

https://www.blueletterbible.org/ The blue letter bible is a great tool for looking at the Greek and Hebrew etc. it's free.

Strong's concordance app is also free on the iPhone...

Thanks! I'm aware of BLB and a few others. I have many resident references and more of a digital library than I need!

 

[studier]

They are great at it for sure, tons of books, writings, podcasts, blogs to explain away the words of Christ Jesus and Paul.

Indeed, there are tremendous implications for this false doctrine of selection.

Including @Kroogz & @PaulThomson and any others.

Keeping it simple and not in any way trying to put you on the spot (as they say):

What do you see as the tremendous implications?

Is there a concept of Election that you see as Biblical? Simply stated, what is it?

 

[Magenta]

I know. It doesn't matter to them. They (most of them)want the "intellectual" debate. And are great at it.

But the POINT in it all.........."You can't choose Christ." That is the premise. That is the point.

When I say "Let that sink in".........Let that sink in! It is sinister.

I wonder who you are talking about. Or even what, since you repeatedly misrepresent, and stubbornly
refuse correction. You are so deceived you do not even believe you misrepresent the beliefs of others...
and yet that is where I remember you started with me when you began posting again on these topics.
That is to say, you began by claiming nobody was being misrepresented, and yet you continue to do so
and still deny it. Almost funny when I think about it. Laughable, really. And if I don't reply it is because
I do not have much patience with people who lie so easily. I have had you on ignore for quite some time.

 

[Kroogz]

Including @Kroogz & @PaulThomson and any others.

Keeping it simple and not in any way trying to put you on the spot (as they say):

What do you see as the tremendous implications?

Is there a concept of Election that you see as Biblical? Simply stated, what is it?

Service.

Salvation~~Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Election~~ Service.

Predestination~~ Only for believers. Adoption/ In Christ. His predesigned plan for those who trust in Him for salvation.

 

[Kroogz]

What do you see as the tremendous implications?

The hindering of the Gospel to unbelievers. Getting close to 10000 posts. 100% of those posts from the calvies is a vehement denial that unbelievers can choose His Gospel to them.

Unbelievers are just animals with a nature.

 

[brightfame52]

@studier

It's nice that you are using some reference material. Please post a link to it. helkō & haireō are two very different words.

I used strongs, thats been stated. I know they two different words, what else is new ?

Same request. Please post a link to such things. Going from a figurative definition of a Greek word in English to making that English word the base of another Greek word is unsound practice to put it mildly.

Look it up yourself, I used strongs. I dont care what you think is unsound, you should know that by now. I used scripture to base my view, Im not going to run around to satisfy your unbelief, if you cant see what I see, then that's how it is. Its not my job to prove truth to you, that's Gods job, the Spirit.

 

[brightfame52]

The hindering of the Gospel to unbelievers. Getting close to 10000 posts. 100% of those posts from the calvies is a vehement denial that unbelievers can choose His Gospel to them.

Unbelievers are just animals with a nature.

All men by nature are beast, animals Ecc 3:18

I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

But theres hope in Jesus for that to be changed, if we be an elect

 

[Kroogz]

All men by nature are beast, animals Ecc 3:18

I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

But theres hope in Jesus for that to be changed, if we be an elect

I loath what you teach.

But I respect you. 90% of those who "follow" you try to sugar coat it...and cry foul when someone takes their sugar coat off.

 

[studier]

if you cant see what I see

Thankfully I cannot.

 

[rogerg]

All men by nature are beast, animals Ecc 3:18

I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

But theres hope in Jesus for that to be changed, if we be an elect

Great point, brightfame52. Interestingly, and in contrast to "beast" representing the unsaved, God also uses "men (man)" spiritually, in certain instances, to represent the elect/saved.