Gospel Confusion...

[Musicmaster]

You are the one who is making things up. Not me. Do you think that Peter understood what Jesus said here?

Mat 16:21
From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
Mat 16:22
Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
Mat 16:23
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Peter obviously understood what Jesus said here, but he did not like it. In fact, he rebuked Jesus for saying it, and he was likened to Satan for doing so. Why didn't Peter like what he obviously understood? Because, he savored not the things that be of God, but those that be of men at that time. Anyhow, stop lying about the apostles in relation to what they understood.

Yes, and looking at how much later in Jesus' ministry this took place, which is later than chapter 10, I will agree that the magnitude of what Jesus had repeatedly told them finally sank in. So, we went from them not at all understanding what He told them several times, to Peter finally getting it, and saying that it will not be so, to which Jesus replied...well, we all know what He said.

I not only answered that question in a previous response by citing to you from Mark 10:32-34, but I also just gave you another clear cut example from Matthew 16:21-23. Again, stop lying about the apostles.

I had hoped that you understand the utter error in the superimposition upon Mark chapter ten what was finally realized and argued in chapter 16 by Peter, as if there was realization in both texts, one of which states no such understanding.

They definitely had a better understanding of the prophetic scriptures themselves after his passion, but this does not diminish the fact that he told them about these things beforehand.

That's an argument from silence to assume they understood His words in every instance where He told them about what was coming. That is a fallacy.

Neither you nor anybody else has shown a single instance where I have assumed anything into scripture that isn't there or where I have made anything up. Instead, I have backed my assertions from scipture.

Well, your own words are a case in point that you are still indeed assuming something into the texts what isn't there. You are ASSUMING that they understood His words in every case, and the text gives no such indication. How much more evidence do you need besides your own words and the implied meaning. If that is not your meaning, then please state such. I'm asking for clarification here.

Another case in point...repetition of the same information is necessary most generally when others do not understand the information the first, the second, and even the third time around.

MM

 

[keepingthingsreal]

This proves the point. This was a SECRET meeting, held at night with ONLY Nicodemus. This was not preached by Jesus to the general Jewish public.

Although this was a secret meeting, Jesus rebuked Nicodemus for not knowing these things as a master in Israel.

Jhn 3:1
There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Jhn 3:2
The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Jhn 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:4
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jhn 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Jhn 3:7
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Jhn 3:8
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Jhn 3:9
Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
Jhn 3:10
Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
Jhn 3:11
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
Jhn 3:12
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Jhn 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Jhn 3:14
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Jhn 3:15
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

From Jesus' perspective, which, quite frankly, is the only perspective I care about, Nicodemus, as a master in Israel, should have not only known what being born again meant prior to his private meeting with Jesus, but he also should have been teaching others about it. In other words, the new birth was foretold of or foreshadowed in the Old Testament, with the lifting up of the serpent being but one example of the same, and Jesus fully expected Nicodemus to know such things, and that is why he rebuked him for not knowing about it previously.

Why didn't Nicodemus have prior understanding of this? Jesus plainly told us why.

Jhn 3:11
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
Jhn 3:12
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Nicodemus' problem was that he received not the witness of scripture or that he believed not.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The Cross gave you salvation to be preached ----without the Cross ----your would not have a choice to choose Salvation -----there was only one choice ----Hell

No one could get into Heaven before the Cross ---all Jews and Gentiles were going to Hell ------there was only eternal Death ----which is the 2nd death ----eternal life came from what Jesus accomplished on the CROSS ____with out the Cross --hell was your end ------

So what I see from you post is that the Cross which gave you a choice ---to have eternal life or have eternal death ---is beyond your pay grade of understanding -----you still have the veil on which clouds your mind to understand and your eyes to see-------getting understanding helps -----

Your showing that if your are born again your on Milk still in your understanding -----you need to mature to meat feeding of the Scripture to get what the Cross signifies ------

Proverbs 4:7 -----in all your getting ---Get understanding ---enlightenment

“Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. …..And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. ……And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭7:47-48, 50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[John146]

Matthew 19:23-24 kjv
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Its the exact same thing, used interchangeably as shown above.. Matthew uses the phrase kingdom of heaven more as he is writing to a jewish audience

Yep, both were at hand at that time. The principle agrees with both.

 

[keepingthingsreal]

Well, your own words are a case in point that you are still indeed assuming something into the texts what isn't there. You are ASSUMING that they understood His words in every case, and the text gives no such indication. How much more evidence do you need besides your own words and the implied meaning. If that is not your meaning, then please state such. I'm asking for clarification here.

Nope. Instead, as usual, the case in point is you, and not me. When did I ever say or assume that they understood his words in every case? How does never grab you? In reality, I already admitted that at that specific point in time in Mark chapter 9, they were questioning what these things meant. I then went on to show you that Jesus later gave them understanding or, in effect, answered their questions.

 

[keepingthingsreal]

So, is the basic premise of this thread that Jesus sent out both the twelve and the seventy with a gospel message that could not truly save anybody?

 

[keepingthingsreal]

Matthew 19:23-24 kjv
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Its the exact same thing, used interchangeably as shown above.. Matthew uses the phrase kingdom of heaven more as he is writing to a jewish audience

For any rational person, what you just posted here would put an end to this part of the discussion. Sad to say, it won't.

Yep, both were at hand at that time. The principle agrees with both.

I told you...

 

[John146]

I told you...

Again I will ask you,

Question: Can the spiritual kingdom within you (kingdom of God) be taken by force?

Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

It's not loaded question or answer. Yes or no.

 

[keepingthingsreal]

Again I will ask you,

Question: Can the spiritual kingdom within you (kingdom of God) be taken by force?

Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

It's not loaded question or answer. Yes or no.

It may not be a loaded question, but it most definitely is an assumptious question. In other words, you are assuming that you are properly interpreting your alleged proof text, and I do not believe that you are. Here is the text in question.

Luk 17:20
And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Who was Jesus talking to here? As the text clearly indicates, he was talking to the Pharisees. Do you honestly believe that Jesus was telling the Pharisees that the kingdom of God was within them or inside of them? Like it or not, they are the "you" to whom he was referring. If you do believe that the Pharisees had the kingdom of God within them, then God help you.

In reality, what Jesus actually said here was that the kingdom of God was "among them" or "in their midst" in the sense that they were presently conversing with the King of the kingdom himself. This not only agrees with the context, but this is also how many Bible translations translate this verse.

New International Version
nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

New Living Translation
You won’t be able to say, ‘Here it is!’ or ‘It’s over there!’ For the Kingdom of God is already among you.”

English Standard Version
nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”

Berean Standard Bible
Nor will people say, ‘Look, here it is,’ or ‘There it is.’ For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

Berean Literal Bible
nor will they say, 'Behold here,' or 'There.' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

King James Bible
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

New King James Version
nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

New American Standard Bible
nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

NASB 1995
nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

NASB 1977
nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

Legacy Standard Bible
nor will they say, ‘Look, here!’ or, ‘There!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

Amplified Bible
nor will people say, ‘Look! Here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For the kingdom of God is among you [because of My presence].”

Christian Standard Bible
no one will say, ‘See here! ’ or ‘There! ’ For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

Holman Christian Standard Bible
no one will say, ‘Look here!’ or ‘There!’ For you see, the kingdom of God is among you.”

American Standard Version
neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.

Contemporary English Version
There is no use saying, 'Look! Here it is' or 'Look! There it is.' God's kingdom is here with you."

English Revised Version
neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
They can't say, 'Here it is!' or 'There it is!' You see, the kingdom of God is within you."

Good News Translation
No one will say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!'; because the Kingdom of God is within you."

International Standard Version
People won't be saying, 'Look! Here it is!' or 'There it is!' because now the kingdom of God is among you."

Majority Standard Bible
Nor will people say, ?Look, here it is,? or ?There it is.? For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst.?

NET Bible
nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or 'There!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

New Heart English Bible
neither will they say, 'Look, here.' or, 'Look, there.' for the Kingdom of God is within you."

Webster's Bible Translation
Neither will they say, Lo here! or lo there! for behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Weymouth New Testament
Nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' --for the Kingdom of God is within you."

World English Bible
neither will they say, ‘Look, here!’ or, ‘Look, there!’ for behold, God’s Kingdom is within you.”

 

[Hakawaka]

I told you...

Yup you did. I feel compelled sometimes to respond to this stuff not for the sake of the resident dispies who will probably never change their views, but for the sake of those reading. There are more people reading on this forum than writing, so I dont want them to get sucked into the dispie scheme:

Proverbs 18:17
The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

 

[homwardbound]

1. To whom did Jesus and His 12 disciples preach?

To whom did Jesus and his Apostles Preach?
The First Chosen Jews, He came as a hen to comfort the chicks, and they refused

What was their Gospel message?
Salvation at Hand, the Savior is here

Paul was the Apostle to who?
Gentiles

What was the Gospel Paul preached?
Salvation through the risen Messiah, Jesus, it is done once by Son for all, for all without having to do works anymore, that was under Law to do perfect, jot one can or could. Therefore God did it, God saves, One, anyone that will not quit belief, these will see, all those that are sincere in seeing they need this new life offered in risen Son Jesus for them from Daddy, PaPa, Father
Are free of charge given this to rest in
Thanks, for these Questions

 

[homwardbound]

So, you believe that Jesus instructed his disciples to preach a gospel message that differed from his own?

Here is but a sample of what Jesus preached from Matthew's gospel.

Mat 12:39
But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Mat 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Mat 16:21
From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Mat 17:22
And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men:
Mat 17:23
And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.

Mat 26:1
And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said unto his disciples,
Mat 26:2
Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.

All that, you mentioned here is, before the cross of my Messiah, the way, the truth and new life in the risen Son to be born new from Father to us in the Holy Spirit of Truth
Jesus had to complete it all first, Acts 1. Before any new life could be given us
and as well, Jesus was not born in the tribe of Levites, in the order of Aaron.
Rather from the tribe of Judah, in the order of Melchizedek as the new High priest to never die again. A Priest over us all forever, since risen where the new life begins in God Father's Spirit and Truth offered us(Holy Spirit) to stand in belief to see and be new in love to all, not a few as I only used to be thank you, before Father, Daddy, PaPa revealed to me what true love is, and that is to love all. Possible now through Son for us as risen, we are seen as perfect from Father now, by Son alone, to me anyways, No more work to do to get, thanks

 

[homwardbound]

And then shall the end come, not later, but then...

The end of literal Law, to love all sincerely from God's gift in risen Son, for all, for me at least
Hebrews 7:11-12
No more hybrid birthing to me a least, no more Mixing Law and grace, I see that, to me, is a gigantic mistake to me anyways, freed now in the liberty of the Law of Love, God's Love 1 cor 13:4-7
Have a great day and an everlasting future in God's love for us all y'all

 

[homwardbound]

Where in those passages do you see it stated that the disciples understood what Jesus was saying?

John 2:22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

The idea that all those quotes show that the disciples understood what He was saying to them, we still have this:

Mark 9:31-32
31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.
32 But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.

So, I hope you can see that what you are assuming into those verses in contrast to this revelation, the assumption simply doesn't hold water.

MM

me I see they did not fathom it, until saw him risen and he explained to them Acts 1 why he had to go through with a willing physical death first, to complete the literal law of Moses, to bring in the new Law of Love for all
I, see after being made new, I see I cannot, not love all, anyone else have others they still hate

 

[studentoftheword]

All this rhetoric fails to grapple with the Kingdom Gospel and its differences compared to the Gospel of Grace.

Grace in the New Testament is a person -----Jesus is Grace -----


What is the gospel of the kingdom?
https://www.gotquestions.org/gospel-of-the-kingdom.html

The phrase gospel of the kingdom and references to “the kingdom of God” and “the kingdom of heaven” are used repeatedly in connection with the Lord Jesus and His work on earth. The word gospel simply means “good news,” and the term translated “kingdom” is the Greek word basileia, which means “the realm in which a sovereign king rules.” Throughout the New Testament, the word kingdom consistently refers to the rule of Christ in the hearts of believers, since, for the time being, Christ’s kingdom is not of this world (John 18:36).

When Jesus began His three-year earthly ministry, He preached that “the kingdom of God is near” (Luke 10:9; cf. Matthew 4:17). Mark 1:14–15 gives a concise description of Jesus’ primary focus during His time on earth: “Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, and saying, ‘The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.’” When asked to define His kingdom, Jesus explained it this way: “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed. . . . The kingdom of God is in the midst of you” (Luke 17:20–21). Romans 14:17 says that the kingdom of God is a matter “of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.”

The gospel of the kingdom is the good-news message of repentance, redemption, and restoration offered by God to all who will receive Christ.
Those who accept this offer become part of His eternal kingdom (John 1:12). Those who choose to remain in their sin cannot be a part of this kingdom (1 Corinthians 6:9–10; Galatians 5:19–21). Although grace makes this offer available to anyone who will receive it, Jesus warned that it would be very difficult to enter His kingdom and few would do so (Matthew 7:14).

The gospel of the kingdom is the news that there is freedom from our slavery to sin if we will repent and turn to God (Romans 6:18–19). Our Redeemer has come, but it is difficult to enter God’s kingdom, not because God requires impossible standards for us, but because we do not want to repent and change. We tend to love the darkness more than the Light (John 3:19). Many would rather cling to their old sinful identities than allow Jesus to create them anew (2 Corinthians 5:17).

Those who receive the gospel of the kingdom become citizens of heaven and are freed from bondage to this world (Galatians 4:3–9). Second Corinthians 5:20 refers to God’s children as “ambassadors” for our heavenly Father. Just as an earthly foreign ambassador retains his national identity when representing his country in another, the spiritual ambassadors of God’s kingdom owe their allegiance to God even as they reside in this world. We must follow our heavenly Father’s code of conduct while sojourners on earth. We need not conform to this world’s habits, values, and lifestyle, because this is not our home (Romans 12:1–2; 1 John 2:15–17).

Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36). So, although we must live here until God calls us home, we are not to live for ourselves or according to this world’s value system. Those who have been bought by the blood of Jesus have been given the right to live according to God’s value system. Citizens of the kingdom of God live here on assignment from our Father the King. Living with a kingdom mindset empowers us to make wiser decisions as we invest our lives in furthering the gospel of the kingdom.

God's children have the promise of ruling and reigning with Christ in His future kingdom on earth. The song of praise sung by the twenty-four elders in heaven one day will include these lines:
“You were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth” (Revelation 5:9–10).

 

[Musicmaster]

You are preaching to the choir, my brother. Dispensationalism is the heretical cake, and the pre-tribulation rapture is the cherry on top of it. I repudiate both.

Well, I hate to see that you want to be here during the tribulation. I've run across a number of Marine tough Christians. Go for it. More power to ya.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Nope. Instead, as usual, the case in point is you, and not me. When did I ever say or assume that they understood his words in every case? How does never grab you? In reality, I already admitted that at that specific point in time in Mark chapter 9, they were questioning what these things meant. I then went on to show you that Jesus later gave them understanding or, in effect, answered their questions.

Tit for tat. No thanks.

MM

 

[keepingthingsreal]

Well, I hate to see that you want to be here during the tribulation. I've run across a number of Marine tough Christians. Go for it. More power to ya.

MM

I never said that I want to be here during the tribulation, so you are seeing something that does not exist. I do, however, fully believe that the rapture is post-tribulation.

Quite frankly, with my understanding of end-times chronological events, I believe that it is highly unlikely that I will still be alive at that time, so it is pretty much a non-issue for me in a strictly personal sense.

 

[Musicmaster]

Salvation through the risen Messiah, Jesus, it is done once by Son for all, for all without having to do works anymore, that was under Law to do perfect, jot one can or could. Therefore God did it, God saves, One, anyone that will not quit belief, these will see, all those that are sincere in seeing they need this new life offered in risen Son Jesus for them from Daddy, PaPa, Father
Are free of charge given this to rest in
Thanks, for these Questions

One caveat I would like to add to this is the following in relation to the Kingdom Gospel preached by Peter after Pentecost:

Acts 2:37-38
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Under the Kingdom Gospel of the apostles to Israel, they were still required to do the work of water baptism to obtain remission of sins. Isn't it great that we today are not required to DO anything for that, given that faith in Christ, His death, burial and resurrection on the third day, is the faith through which we are given grace (unmerited favor) unto salvation?

One fella tried to tell me that water baptism is a matter of "obedience," and therefore allegedly not a "work." If that were the case, then obedience to the Law of Moses was also not a works-based system, and Paul made enough argumentation against all that for us to know better. That fella was hoping to foist that one over onto us without anyone noticing, but it went down in flames.

Amen for that.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

I never said that I want to be here during the tribulation, so you are seeing something that does not exist. I do, however, fully believe that the rapture is post-tribulation.

Quite frankly, with my understanding of end-times chronological events, I believe that it is highly unlikely that I will still be alive at that time, so it is pretty much a non-issue for me in a strictly personal sense.

I'm not necessarily saying that believing you will be here through it is a matter of wanting to be here, but I do wonder just how much effort you have placed into exploring the errors of mid, pre-wrath or post tribulation rapture, resurrection, or whatever you may want to call it. Without enough effort, one must WANT to be here. Is that a proper assessment?

MM