Understanding God’s election
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Scripture plainly states that all are drawn. Do you agree? Do you believe this all being drawn equates to all coming? That would be universalism. I do not believe that is what you believe. So being drawn is not the, shall we say, deciding factor. However, John 6:37 plainly says that those given by God to Jesus will come. So there is a deciding factor. Those given to Jesus by God WILL come. All souls already belong to God. So that is not the issue either.
Yes. You hit the right note of simple common sense reading of the Bible, which is how we ought always believe and do His words.
2Co 1:12For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward…But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
1 Cor{14:33} For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Sometimes we make the Bible harder to read than it really is. A right reading of Scripture always produces simple plain answers, that any reasonable child can understand. If more doubts and confusion are produced, especially in opposition to a true and living God that loves all His creatures, then it can only be inspired by the father of lies against God.
I am almost struck dumb by people calling themselves Christians, that would preach any kind of old pagan evil God, as the true Creator and God that is love, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Pagans believed that the gods were fickle and sometimes chose men and women to do good and others evil, which was after their own fashion of good and evil gods and goddesses. Pagan fatalism is the natural theology of people that believe in evil creating gods, and they have no freedom to choose to actr against their predetermined will in life. If your station in life is good and successful, then you are simply one of 'fortune's favorites', and if not, then the dice is simply cast against you.
There is only one man on earth, that was prechosen by God before coming into the world, to do one thing: To offer Himself a sacrifice for sinful mankind, which is why Jesus Christ is called the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Otherwise, every man is created the same with the same predetermined purpose in life, as with all of God's creatures: to praise the Lord and show forth His goodness and mercy in words and deeds.
1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
2Co 1:12For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward…But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
1 Cor{14:33} For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Sometimes we make the Bible harder to read than it really is. A right reading of Scripture always produces simple plain answers, that any reasonable child can understand. If more doubts and confusion are produced, especially in opposition to a true and living God that loves all His creatures, then it can only be inspired by the father of lies against God.
I am almost struck dumb by people calling themselves Christians, that would preach any kind of old pagan evil God, as the true Creator and God that is love, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Pagans believed that the gods were fickle and sometimes chose men and women to do good and others evil, which was after their own fashion of good and evil gods and goddesses. Pagan fatalism is the natural theology of people that believe in evil creating gods, and they have no freedom to choose to actr against their predetermined will in life. If your station in life is good and successful, then you are simply one of 'fortune's favorites', and if not, then the dice is simply cast against you.
There is only one man on earth, that was prechosen by God before coming into the world, to do one thing: To offer Himself a sacrifice for sinful mankind, which is why Jesus Christ is called the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Otherwise, every man is created the same with the same predetermined purpose in life, as with all of God's creatures: to praise the Lord and show forth His goodness and mercy in words and deeds.
1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Good correction. I wasn't clear enough to ensure being chosen for ministry, must be preceeded by chosen to be saints.
All are called to repent, and all that repent for Jesus' sake are chosen to be His elect saints. But not all saints are called to ministry, and so not all are chosen to be ordained.
Any person can choose to repent, because all are called unto repentance; however, no saint can choose for himself to be ordained to His ministry on earth. It is only the Lord Himself that chooses among His people some apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, etc...
Eph 4:11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Heb 5:4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
1Ti 1:7Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
The reason His ministry has been corrupted by otherwise sincere Christians, I believe, is due to a premature call to ministry of our own making, rather than waiting to be called, ordained, and sent by Him personally into His ministry.
Amo 7:14 Then answered Amos, and said to Amaziah, I was no prophet, neither was I a prophet's son; but I was an herdman, and a gatherer of sycomore fruit:
Even Jesus Himself was commanded by His Father to return with His parents, until His time of ministry to Israel, beginning with the baptism of John.
All are called to repent, and all that repent for Jesus' sake are chosen to be His elect saints. But not all saints are called to ministry, and so not all are chosen to be ordained.
Any person can choose to repent, because all are called unto repentance; however, no saint can choose for himself to be ordained to His ministry on earth. It is only the Lord Himself that chooses among His people some apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, etc...
Eph 4:11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Heb 5:4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
1Ti 1:7Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
The reason His ministry has been corrupted by otherwise sincere Christians, I believe, is due to a premature call to ministry of our own making, rather than waiting to be called, ordained, and sent by Him personally into His ministry.
Amo 7:14 Then answered Amos, and said to Amaziah, I was no prophet, neither was I a prophet's son; but I was an herdman, and a gatherer of sycomore fruit:
Even Jesus Himself was commanded by His Father to return with His parents, until His time of ministry to Israel, beginning with the baptism of John.
Actually, I do since I do not believe that "all" being drawn is being used in the distributive sense. Plus we have this text"
John 6:65
65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."
NIV
Jesus is clearly equating the Father's enabling power with the drawing of souls to Christ. The drawing, therefore, is efficacious.
Now...were the "disciples" who followed Jesus, after being fed drawn, by the Father? I don't think so. Their bellies, their lust for material blessings is what drew them -- it's what motivated them to follow Him the next day. They had no true spiritual interest in Jesus, which is why most of the departed and went back home. Conversely, we also read:
John 6:40
40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
NIV
Sounds pretty effectual to me. This "drawing" by the Father, then, means that men will come, they will look upon Jesus and believe on Him and Jesus will raise such people up on the last day. All of this is God's will! Can anyone thwart God's will?
Also, the Gr. term pantas (Strong's 3956), according to BLB is used in scripture individually (i.e. in the distributive sense) and also collectively, i.e. in the limited sense. When used in this latter sense, the term means "some of all types". For example, when Jesus said "If I be lifted up I will draw all [men] to myself, he could have just as easily said "If I be lifted up, I will draw men from all nations." And I believe this is what Jesus meant in Jn 12:32, most especially since the term "men" in our English bibles is not in the manuscripts! It was added by translators in an attempt to help with interpretation; but as sometimes the case is the addition detracts from the true meaning. The text literally reads:
John 12:32
32 and I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all to me.
Darby
The above text, then, is not as cut 'n' dry as many would have us believe. Below is the link to BLB:
https://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3956&t=KJV
John 6:65
65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."
NIV
Jesus is clearly equating the Father's enabling power with the drawing of souls to Christ. The drawing, therefore, is efficacious.
Now...were the "disciples" who followed Jesus, after being fed drawn, by the Father? I don't think so. Their bellies, their lust for material blessings is what drew them -- it's what motivated them to follow Him the next day. They had no true spiritual interest in Jesus, which is why most of the departed and went back home. Conversely, we also read:
John 6:40
40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
NIV
Sounds pretty effectual to me. This "drawing" by the Father, then, means that men will come, they will look upon Jesus and believe on Him and Jesus will raise such people up on the last day. All of this is God's will! Can anyone thwart God's will?
Also, the Gr. term pantas (Strong's 3956), according to BLB is used in scripture individually (i.e. in the distributive sense) and also collectively, i.e. in the limited sense. When used in this latter sense, the term means "some of all types". For example, when Jesus said "If I be lifted up I will draw all [men] to myself, he could have just as easily said "If I be lifted up, I will draw men from all nations." And I believe this is what Jesus meant in Jn 12:32, most especially since the term "men" in our English bibles is not in the manuscripts! It was added by translators in an attempt to help with interpretation; but as sometimes the case is the addition detracts from the true meaning. The text literally reads:
John 12:32
32 and I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all to me.
Darby
The above text, then, is not as cut 'n' dry as many would have us believe. Below is the link to BLB:
https://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3956&t=KJV
But those who are drawn by GOD are given to Christ. It's those who are NOT drawn by God but are attracted to Christ, nonetheless, for various carnal reasons (such as all those false disciples in John 6) who will fall away, for they were never given to the Son. I see the drawing of God as his enabling power which is efficacious (Jn 6:65).
It's seems quite clear from scripture that this "coming to Jesus" is a process that is expressed in various ways: New birth from above, the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit and this drawing that God himself does.
It's seems quite clear from scripture that this "coming to Jesus" is a process that is expressed in various ways: New birth from above, the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit and this drawing that God himself does.
On the other hand, we are exhorted to grow in grace and knowledge of the Lord (2Pet 3:18). Also see, Phil 1:9; Col 2:3; 1Tim 2:4; Tit 1:1, etc.
Perhaps it's time for you to break loose of your trap and discover other threads where ignorance (the antithesis of knowledge) abounds. I personally enjoy this thread for there are several here who are mature and have grown in grace and knowledge.
Perhaps it's time for you to break loose of your trap and discover other threads where ignorance (the antithesis of knowledge) abounds. I personally enjoy this thread for there are several here who are mature and have grown in grace and knowledge.
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Before retiring for the evening, I have a question for one and all (yes, FWs that means you too). 
I've been wanting to ask this for some time now and keep forgetting or get involved in other things.
One of the biggest objections FWs bring to the Doctrines of Grace is that if God elects people and effectually enables them to repent of their sins and believe the Gospel, then God would be forcing his will upon "free" moral agents, making robots out of us, would make God into a tyrannical monster, yada, yada, yada. We've all heard the rhetoric numerous times. Now....there's actually mega, mega, megabytes of irony in this kind of objection because these FWs fancy themselves as being experts on God's love and will just as quickly tell us God's love is his primary attribute, is unconditional in nature, is universal in scope, etc, etc., etc.. But if FWs truly believed all their own love rhetoric, how could they logically ever posit a rebuttal to anyone's opposing theology that strongly implies that our Creator & Redeemer is something less than loving if he were to "impose/force" his perfect, holy, righteous, good, loving, compassionate, merciful, gracious will upon any sinner?
Let's assume that the premise to your inane objection is right, and that if Reformers are right, then God would be seizing our minds and hearts by imposing himself upon sinners. But my question to you is: Why wouldn't you want an all-Wise, all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving God of Love to take complete control of your life?
Everyone have a blessed evening and, Magenta, hope you're well enough to return to work tomorrow.
I've been wanting to ask this for some time now and keep forgetting or get involved in other things.One of the biggest objections FWs bring to the Doctrines of Grace is that if God elects people and effectually enables them to repent of their sins and believe the Gospel, then God would be forcing his will upon "free" moral agents, making robots out of us, would make God into a tyrannical monster, yada, yada, yada. We've all heard the rhetoric numerous times. Now....there's actually mega, mega, megabytes of irony in this kind of objection because these FWs fancy themselves as being experts on God's love and will just as quickly tell us God's love is his primary attribute, is unconditional in nature, is universal in scope, etc, etc., etc.. But if FWs truly believed all their own love rhetoric, how could they logically ever posit a rebuttal to anyone's opposing theology that strongly implies that our Creator & Redeemer is something less than loving if he were to "impose/force" his perfect, holy, righteous, good, loving, compassionate, merciful, gracious will upon any sinner?
Let's assume that the premise to your inane objection is right, and that if Reformers are right, then God would be seizing our minds and hearts by imposing himself upon sinners. But my question to you is: Why wouldn't you want an all-Wise, all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving God of Love to take complete control of your life?
Everyone have a blessed evening and, Magenta, hope you're well enough to return to work tomorrow.
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