Understanding God’s election
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This parable is an explanation of the kingdom of God being taken from the Jews and given to the Gentiles. So any consideration of salvation is secondary. But since you brought it up, Luke 14:23 says...compel them to come. What is that compelling all about?
And you still haven't dealt with the fact that Jesus said that He will build His church on the revelation of the Father that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. What is this teaching in your opinion?
And you still haven't dealt with the fact that Jesus said that He will build His church on the revelation of the Father that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. What is this teaching in your opinion?
I'll do better than that by pointing you to post #8751, in which Rufus acknowledged that "What Natural Revelation can do is act as a stepping stone to Special Revelation wherein the Gospel is revealed", so why won't you?
What Natural Revelation can do is exactly like what the OT law can do per Paul. Of course, this assumes Special Revelation is possible. In cases where it is impossible, Paul indicates (in CL 1:23, RM 10:13-18, GL 3:8) that c&c or GenRev serves as a sort of provisional or proto-Gospel. (Perhaps those souls are "the spirits in prison" to whom Jesus preached after his death per 1PT 3:18-19.)
What Natural Revelation can do is exactly like what the OT law can do per Paul. Of course, this assumes Special Revelation is possible. In cases where it is impossible, Paul indicates (in CL 1:23, RM 10:13-18, GL 3:8) that c&c or GenRev serves as a sort of provisional or proto-Gospel. (Perhaps those souls are "the spirits in prison" to whom Jesus preached after his death per 1PT 3:18-19.)
While I agree God could employ it as a stepping stone, you failed to answer the question: how many does Paul say come to faith this way? What does he say happens to each one who knows God this way?
The moment you introduce God into the equation, you have altered what Paul has been claiming because it no longer is what man can know by creation, but by a direct act of God upon the individual.
The moment you introduce God into the equation, you have altered what Paul has been claiming because it no longer is what man can know by creation, but by a direct act of God upon the individual.
“What is that compelling all about? “
this
“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,
and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
Acts 2:38
He doesnt say I’ll magically force some to believe and others I’ll never give them any chance ….he told his servants to compel them …that doesn’t mean Peter then went around forcing and magically enabling some but not others lol
And you still haven't dealt with the fact that Jesus said that He will build His church on the revelation of the Father that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. What is this teaching in your opinion?
yeah I already told you the gospel is the revelation that Jesus is the son of God
You act as if believing the gospel won’t save anyone like God said or rather that God chooses one an to be able to be saved and another he is chosen to be damned. The things you come up with just work to go in circles to cling to fables.
But then again you are one of the chosen ones that god has respect for
this
“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,
and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
Acts 2:38
He doesnt say I’ll magically force some to believe and others I’ll never give them any chance ….he told his servants to compel them …that doesn’t mean Peter then went around forcing and magically enabling some but not others lol
And you still haven't dealt with the fact that Jesus said that He will build His church on the revelation of the Father that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. What is this teaching in your opinion?
yeah I already told you the gospel is the revelation that Jesus is the son of God
You act as if believing the gospel won’t save anyone like God said or rather that God chooses one an to be able to be saved and another he is chosen to be damned. The things you come up with just work to go in circles to cling to fables.
But then again you are one of the chosen ones that god has respect for
That is not true because the question has always been, does God reveal the gospel through His creation, and the answer is no, He reveals His existence... And that is what Cameron has been trying to get at all along, but people are averse to admitting the truth of the matter. You post quite often the verse from Mark about going into all the world to preach the gospel...
Romans 10:13-15 ~ Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on Him in Whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of Whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? As it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
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I think it’s true I was reading his responses he raises a new question every post to avoid what the other person said that’s my own experience
“does God reveal the gospel through His creation, and the answer is no,”
first I heard of that question . And not really sure what it even means so I can’t really say anything I mean he did choose apostles to preach the gospel and say anyone who believes them would be saved . And that thier words who were filled with his spirit would be how people believed …..
But it just gets ignored
“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.”
John 17:6, 8-9, 20-21 KJV
Some seem to need to add thier thinking “ only if God chooses to magically reveal something to you but not others “ but that part doesn’t exist in scripture he sent out apostles chosen sent messengers to witness the gospel to all people
that’s how people are able to believe in Jesus they hear and accept the gospel the witness he sent to us
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16
consider that part just mark 16 there . Look how God enables them
“And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.”
Acts 10:42-44 KJV
you guys have to add the secret choosing part God spoke words because humans understand words . If you remove the message of the gospel being preached nonone could believe it’s the only thing that can get a person to believe they have to hear the real gospel that’s how we receive the spirit and that’s what helps us
“How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? ( No ne ever heard of Jesus and his message before he sent the apostles out with the message ) and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent?( the apostles were the sent messengers of the lord who carried his message of salvstion o to the world ) as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:14-15, 17 KJV
the gospel is the revelation of Gods good will and peace towards mankind
“does God reveal the gospel through His creation, and the answer is no,”
first I heard of that question . And not really sure what it even means so I can’t really say anything I mean he did choose apostles to preach the gospel and say anyone who believes them would be saved . And that thier words who were filled with his spirit would be how people believed …..
But it just gets ignored
“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.”
John 17:6, 8-9, 20-21 KJV
Some seem to need to add thier thinking “ only if God chooses to magically reveal something to you but not others “ but that part doesn’t exist in scripture he sent out apostles chosen sent messengers to witness the gospel to all people
that’s how people are able to believe in Jesus they hear and accept the gospel the witness he sent to us
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16
consider that part just mark 16 there . Look how God enables them
“And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.”
Acts 10:42-44 KJV
you guys have to add the secret choosing part God spoke words because humans understand words . If you remove the message of the gospel being preached nonone could believe it’s the only thing that can get a person to believe they have to hear the real gospel that’s how we receive the spirit and that’s what helps us
“How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? ( No ne ever heard of Jesus and his message before he sent the apostles out with the message ) and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent?( the apostles were the sent messengers of the lord who carried his message of salvstion o to the world ) as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:14-15, 17 KJV
the gospel is the revelation of Gods good will and peace towards mankind
The question all along has been...what is the genesis of faith? In other words, is the source of faith the individual, or God?
I have attempted to show, as Philippians 1:6 says..He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it..., that salvation begins and ends with God. And that the reason that this is necessary is the estate of fallen man.
As your tone reveals my manner hasn't met well with your temperament, I offer my sincerest apologies.
Grace and peace.
I have attempted to show, as Philippians 1:6 says..He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it..., that salvation begins and ends with God. And that the reason that this is necessary is the estate of fallen man.
As your tone reveals my manner hasn't met well with your temperament, I offer my sincerest apologies.
Grace and peace.
Romans 10:13-15 ~ Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on Him in Whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of Whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? As it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
“For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Romans 10:11-13 KJV
Not whosoever the lord forces to believe or whosever is chosen from among the u worthy but whoever out of the i worthy that calls upon his name , whoever believes the gospel out of all the lost sinners they can be saved by the gospel message of Jesus Christ our lord the same message that saved them and can save anyone
Lol see what I mean another question after never addressing the prior part of the conversation but ok
“The question all along has been...what is the genesis of faith? “
jesus sending his apostles to preach the gospel to all people is
“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. ( how can we call on his name if we haven’t heard of him ?)
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?
and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent?
as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:13-15, 17 KJV
Instead of trying to make this not about what it’s about read what’s being said there . He’s saying the gospel was sent out to the people by the ones Jesus sent the apostles , and by that word he sent comes faith . It’s the same principle here
“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. ( he’s speaking of his apostles here but later look what he says of everyone else )
….Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;”
John 17:6, 8-9, 20
the gospel being preached is how people can hear and believe. the gospel is for anyone and everyone but many like any gift if they don’t want it , treat it as such . They go for other choices it isnt because they were given a choice every human has or will be even dead people had to hear the gospel in order to be judged i mean that’s pretty inclusive
“The question all along has been...what is the genesis of faith? “
jesus sending his apostles to preach the gospel to all people is
“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. ( how can we call on his name if we haven’t heard of him ?)
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?
and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent?
as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:13-15, 17 KJV
Instead of trying to make this not about what it’s about read what’s being said there . He’s saying the gospel was sent out to the people by the ones Jesus sent the apostles , and by that word he sent comes faith . It’s the same principle here
“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. ( he’s speaking of his apostles here but later look what he says of everyone else )
….Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;”
John 17:6, 8-9, 20
the gospel being preached is how people can hear and believe. the gospel is for anyone and everyone but many like any gift if they don’t want it , treat it as such . They go for other choices it isnt because they were given a choice every human has or will be even dead people had to hear the gospel in order to be judged i mean that’s pretty inclusive
Why, oh, why, oh why are so many of you FWs totally inept at exegeting scripture!? (Rhetorical question, as I know why.) It's because your unbiblical presuppositions have blinded your eyes to see what passages are actually saying. And why didn't you quote the entire parable for more important context? Here's the entire parable:
Matt 22:1-14
22:1 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2 "The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.
4 "Then he sent some more servants and said, 'Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.'
5 "But they paid no attention and went off — one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.
8 "Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9 Go to the street corners and INVITE to the banquet anyone you find.' 10 So the servants went out into the streets and GATHERED all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.
11 "But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless.
13 "Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
14 "For many are invited, but few are chosen."
NIV
The parable deals with three groups of people. The first two groups (both Jewish primarily) were "invited" to the Son's wedding feast. These Jews refused the invitations (the external call of the Gospel), cf. vv.1-6. Jesus is very likely speaking about the Jews in these verses because, after all, "He came to his own and his own received him not (Jn 1:11).
More evidence that the first two invitations were to Jews is found in v. 7. The king sent his army (Rome) and destroyed the apostate nation and burned their city -- all of which is an allusion to what would happen in 70 A.D.
Then the king sends out his servants to invite more people in (v.9). But note very carefully how v. 10 above reads: The servants went out and GATHERED "both the good and bad" and they filled the wedding hall with guests. With this third group, they didn't merely give the external call of the Gospel (outward invitation) but they actually brought them into into the wedding hall. This invitation was effectual! The servants never gathered anyone from the first two groups.
This effectual call harmonizes quite nicely with the unconditional, unilateral New Covenant which went into effect at the Cross! And Jesus makes this very clear in v.14. "For many are invited", which pertains to the first two groups who heard the external call of the Gospel of the Kingdom. And these two groups are contrasted with the third, "but few are chosen". And it was these chosen ones who were actually gathered and brought into the wedding hall. This third group, therefore, was treated very differently from the first two groups. The "invitation" they received was external and internal! We know it was effectual because no one in the third group rejected the call!
Matt 22:1-14
22:1 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2 "The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.
4 "Then he sent some more servants and said, 'Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.'
5 "But they paid no attention and went off — one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.
8 "Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9 Go to the street corners and INVITE to the banquet anyone you find.' 10 So the servants went out into the streets and GATHERED all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.
11 "But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless.
13 "Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
14 "For many are invited, but few are chosen."
NIV
The parable deals with three groups of people. The first two groups (both Jewish primarily) were "invited" to the Son's wedding feast. These Jews refused the invitations (the external call of the Gospel), cf. vv.1-6. Jesus is very likely speaking about the Jews in these verses because, after all, "He came to his own and his own received him not (Jn 1:11).
More evidence that the first two invitations were to Jews is found in v. 7. The king sent his army (Rome) and destroyed the apostate nation and burned their city -- all of which is an allusion to what would happen in 70 A.D.
Then the king sends out his servants to invite more people in (v.9). But note very carefully how v. 10 above reads: The servants went out and GATHERED "both the good and bad" and they filled the wedding hall with guests. With this third group, they didn't merely give the external call of the Gospel (outward invitation) but they actually brought them into into the wedding hall. This invitation was effectual! The servants never gathered anyone from the first two groups.
This effectual call harmonizes quite nicely with the unconditional, unilateral New Covenant which went into effect at the Cross! And Jesus makes this very clear in v.14. "For many are invited", which pertains to the first two groups who heard the external call of the Gospel of the Kingdom. And these two groups are contrasted with the third, "but few are chosen". And it was these chosen ones who were actually gathered and brought into the wedding hall. This third group, therefore, was treated very differently from the first two groups. The "invitation" they received was external and internal! We know it was effectual because no one in the third group rejected the call!
Coming at the same point from multiple angles to help people see the point is not something that should
be disparaged... and yet it is, all the time, because people do not want to admit to the point in the first place.
The point all along has been that the gospel is not made manifest in creation, which reveals the fact there
is a God, reveals the fact of His existence, and His glory. People are without excuse because they know God
exists, but it is a fact also that the gospel needs to be preached to be heard.
be disparaged... and yet it is, all the time, because people do not want to admit to the point in the first place.
The point all along has been that the gospel is not made manifest in creation, which reveals the fact there
is a God, reveals the fact of His existence, and His glory. People are without excuse because they know God
exists, but it is a fact also that the gospel needs to be preached to be heard.
In a conversation when they are telling you you never adress what they say though ? It’s then wrong to point out that they never answer anyone but just change the subject ? Yea I guess so lol
a conversation that gets anywhere requires us not to avoid what’s said and reframe everything each time.
“The point all along has been that the gospel is not made manifest in creation which reveals the fact there is a God, reveals the fact of His existence, and His glory.”
oh ok yeah I though that’s why he sent the gospel to us promising remission of sins and salvation lol so that whoever believes would be saved …..
a conversation that gets anywhere requires us not to avoid what’s said and reframe everything each time.
“The point all along has been that the gospel is not made manifest in creation which reveals the fact there is a God, reveals the fact of His existence, and His glory.”
oh ok yeah I though that’s why he sent the gospel to us promising remission of sins and salvation lol so that whoever believes would be saved …..