Understanding God’s election

[Inquisitor]

If someone has received God's gift of faith, they will never pass away. They will never fall away. They cannot because God Almighty himself has purified their hearts by [his gift of] faith (Act 15:9).

But what you can't see is the biblical truth that there is such a thing as spurious faith, which is precisely the subject matter of the Parable of the Four Soils. And this kind of faith is not God's gift! Rather, it's a product of a deceived and wicked heart. It's a faith that is self-generated by the flesh! And, yes, people with this kind of faith can have it for decades and never realize that that kind of faith is a one-way ticket to eternal perdition! As I have pointed out previously, there are literally millions of members of cults or even members of sound churches who have this kind of faith. They, like the people in Mat 7:23, believe Jesus is their Lord, yet their hearts are far removed from Him. They honor him with their lips, with external rituals, with their dead works, etc., but they have never had any sincere heart-felt belief in Him. Such is the pernicious nature of self-deceit!

I have previously provided biblical examples of people having fake faith. Here's, yet, another passage that makes that point. See Acts 19:11-16. These Jewish "exorcists" even called upon the name of Jesus -- but it did not end well for them.

What you stated is true.

Though your missing the point I made.

"No one says "Jesus is Lord" without the Spirit of God."

That is how you are attached to the vine (Christ) by the spirit of God.

God prunes and severs those branches from the vine.

How can God sever a branch that was only in the vine by the spirit of God?

 

[Inquisitor]

Is the church built through natural understanding that a man comes to on his own or through a supernatural understanding given by God? Is there a difference between the two? In other words, would salvation occur apart from the revelation of God to an individual?

Two people go to church. Both hear the gospel. One is gloriously saved and the other unaffected. What accounts for the difference?

Two very good questions.

The sola scripture answers both questions.

The supernatural church is built according to the blueprint in 1 Corinthians.

A traditional church relies on the traditions established by previous, historical churches.

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The second question is a very complex question.

Here are two points that will impact a response to the gospel.

It is definitely easier to be saved in the Bible belt of the United States.

It is almost impossible to be saved, for example; in North Korea, Algeria, or Afghanistan.

The country your born in directly affects God's election.

 

[decipher]

For one thing, I would not want to stuff hyperdimensional infinite holy Beings into a nutshell we create for them.
The reality is that this passage once again underscores the fact that INDIVIDUAL DISCRETE WILLS truly exist......even among the Trinity.

Thats the point IMO.

And this principle is EVERYWHERE in Scripture. Individual consciousness and true free will = true life.
Anything less and Satan is right.

I'm trying to understand and at the same time trying to use common sense. Could you possibly tell me, in the Trinity, Father and Son have different wills. Which one commands? Which one obeys? Which one is sent by the other? Which one is the God of the Son? Did the Father exist before the Son? Why is he called the only begotten Son of God? Wasn't he the only begotten Son of God before he became Jesus? He was sent by the Father in heaven to become a man and die on earth. Obviously, he obeyed the Father while in heaven as well as while on earth. Of the Trinity, is there a boss or one in command? Please help me to understand and make sense. Jesus said that his bread was to do the Father's will. That is what he lived for. Does the Father subjugate his will to that of the Son if they differ? There is no incidence of that nature in the Bible because the Son always does the will of the Father. Please explain to me how they are equal or the same being.

 

[Magenta]

John 14:28 "You heard Me say, ‘I am going away, and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved
Me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I."

 

[GWH]

True, but foreknown is foredetermined nor prechosen before being created in the world. Knowing beforehand is not necessarily determining beforehand. God foreknows all things by watching all things come to pass, not by determining what everyone will do, before we do it. That is akin to old pagan fatalistic theology. It rules out living by faith, but only by prechosen determination of 'the gods'.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

We are all free to interpret Scipture with a certain meaning, unless is violates other Scripture that can only be interpreted one way.

Mat 22:14For many are called, but few are chosen.

If all those that will be in Christ Jesus, are prechosen before the foundation of the world, then there would not be any present choosing in this life as the Scripture says. Instead the Scripture would say, Many are called, but few are prechosen. Also, only the few prechosen would be called, since God does not call in vain them, that He has already rejected before creation. And finally, choosing is after being called in this life, not before.

Both grammatically and doctrinally Eph 1:4 can be interpreted, that God has determined before the foundation of the world, that those who are chosen by Him in the world, should live holy and without blame in Christ Jesus.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We that are called and chosen in this life are preordained, that we should walk worthy of the Lord.

Yes, all normal human souls are free to believe or reject GW as revealed by creation, conscience and Scripture, and God chose from the beginning to save all who would seek salvation, choose to believe/have faith in Him and thereby be created or saved in Christ.

IOW, it is God's POS via the Gospel of Christ that is predestined or determined, not souls, so those who exercise volition by ignoring GW/POS justly reap condemnation in hell.

 

[Cameron143]

Two very good questions.

The sola scripture answers both questions.

The supernatural church is built according to the blueprint in 1 Corinthians.

A traditional church relies on the traditions established by previous, historical churches.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The second question is a very complex question.

Here are two points that will impact a response to the gospel.

It is definitely easier to be saved in the Bible belt of the United States.

It is almost impossible to be saved, for example; in North Korea, Algeria, or Afghanistan.

The country your born in directly affects God's election.

The persecuted church is always the fastest growing church. And God can reach any person, any time, and anywhere.

 

[Cameron143]

Yes, all normal human souls are free to believe or reject GW as revealed by creation, conscience and Scripture, and God chose from the beginning to save all who would seek salvation, choose to believe/have faith in Him and thereby be created or saved in Christ.

IOW, it is God's POS via the Gospel of Christ that is predestined or determined, not souls, so those who exercise volition by ignoring GW/POS justly reap condemnation in hell.

God's word is not revealed in creation or conscience. The knowledge of God's existence is.

 

[GWH]

God's word is not revealed in creation or conscience. The knowledge of God's existence is.

Knowledge = revelation per Paul in RM 1:18-20. (TOP #10 :^)

 

[Cameron143]

Knowledge = revelation per Paul in RM 1:18-20. (TOP #10 :^)

Sure. But knowledge about verses knowledge of are 2 different things. One is experiential, and the other is simply cognitive. One is intimate, and one is factual.
All knowledge isn't the same. You may know how a car runs, but that doesn't mean you can repair one.
One may know of the existence of God without ever knowing God.

 

[GWH]

Sure. But knowledge about verses knowledge of are 2 different things. One is experiential, and the other is simply cognitive. One is intimate, and one is factual.
All knowledge isn't the same. You may know how a car runs, but that doesn't mean you can repair one.

For anyone seeing this exchange, it illustrates the importance of utilizing "both-and" logic or harmonization rather than "either-or" thinking or double-think in order to understand all Scripture.

In this case, the truth is that revelation includes BOTH cognitive/factual knowledge AND experiential/intimate knowledge.

In either case or regarding both ways of LGW, it must be accompanied/followed by saving faith in order to be salvific or satisfy GRFS.

 

[Cameron143]

For anyone seeing this exchange, it illustrates the importance of utilizing "both-and" logic or harmonization rather than "either-or" thinking or double-think in order to understand all Scripture.

In this case, the truth is that revelation includes BOTH cognitive/factual knowledge AND experiential/intimate knowledge.

In either case or regarding both ways of LGW, it must be accompanied/followed by saving faith in order to be salvific or satisfy GRFS.

One is the substance of eternal life...John 17:3. The other is not.

 

[GWH]

One is the substance of eternal life...John 17:3. The other is not.

No, the substance of salvation is saving faith in the Gospel of Christ, at which point (called conversion or repentance) knowledge of GRFS becomes personalized or "intimate".

"One" AND the other one = BOTH are means of finding or learning such knowledge or God's salvation that was sought.

 

[Cameron143]

No, the substance of salvation is saving faith in the Gospel of Christ, at which point (called conversion or repentance) knowledge of GRFS becomes personalized or "intimate".

"One" AND the other one = BOTH are means of finding or learning such knowledge or God's salvation that was sought.

The substance of salvation is eternal life. What is restored in salvation is the ability to again relate to God intimately. Faith is merely the means.

 

[Rufus]

Thanks for your opinion, although I do not see what you highlighted.

As for may/might meaning "have the ability to", that is exactly the meaning I intend.

Re God's love: His love for every sinner squares or harmonizes quite easily with His hatred of every sin.

So, then how do you reconcile what I just bolded with Prov 11:20 wherein it is stated that God abhors/detests those with perverse hearts -- keeping in mind that the Heb term rendered "abhors" or "detests" in the same term used in Prov 11:1?

 

[Rufus]

This is spot on. God is not a respector of persons, otherwise, He would never choose any Gentiles for His people. His call is to all, and His choice is to all that answer the call with yea and amen.

Many are called to repent, but only few repent and are chosen to live and walk with Him.




Exactly again. Very good. It makes perfect sense. In John 15 Jesus is speaking of branches in His vine. He is speaking of being chosen and ordained for His ministry, not of being chosen from the world to become saints by repentance from dead works.

But even if what you stated were true, how can you dichotomize "chosen and ordained for ministry" from "chosen...to become saints by repentance..."? How can one be chosen for the former while not being chosen to become a saint? Can the unclean, the unwashed, the uncircumcised, the unrepentant, the ungodly minister for or unto Christ?

 

[Magenta]

One is the substance of eternal life...John 17:3. The other is not.

John 17:2-3~ You granted Him authority over all people, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him. Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, Whom You have sent.

 

[Magenta]

So, then how do you reconcile what I just bolded with Prov 11:20 wherein it is stated that God abhors/detests those with
perverse hearts -- keeping in mind that the Heb term rendered "abhors" or "detests" in the same term used in Prov 11:1?

There are none righteous. Oh, wait, that must be a euphemism. It can't possibly mean what it says! Especially since
our spirit is alive because of righteousness, and that means the righteousness of Christ. Except in free will theology.
In free will theology, the leopard can change his spots and the Ethiopian the colour of his skin! In free will theology.
the stony heart -which is bad ground for growing anything- can produce the good fruit of faith...

 

[BillyBob]

It is definitely easier to be saved in the Bible belt of the United States.

Easier for who?
I believe that our God is a covenantal God, and that more than anything else is used to draw His people.

Genesis 9:9
And as for Me, behold, I establish My covenant with you and with your descendants after you,

An individual is much more likely to become a child of God because he/she was raised by a child of God. From their natural birth they were taught to live in God's ways. This is not always so, but plays a large role in the method that God will use to change their hearts – so that they also will become believers.

 

[Inquisitor]

The persecuted church is always the fastest growing church. And God can reach any person, any time, and anywhere.

So why are the Christian populations so low in Somalia, Yemen, or say North Korea?

In those three countries above the Christian population is approximately 0.01%.

God does not elect many Christians in those countries.

Yet in the some Pacific nations the Christian population is above 98%.

God's election is massive in those Pacific nations.

God's sovereign will seems to diminish according to nationality?

 

[Rufus]

What you stated is true.

Though your missing the point I made.

"No one says "Jesus is Lord" without the Spirit of God."

That is how you are attached to the vine (Christ) by the spirit of God.

God prunes and severs those branches from the vine.

How can God sever a branch that was only in the vine by the spirit of God?

First of all the "pruning" benefits those who are already bearing fruit because it helps them to bear even more fruit (Jn 15:2).

John 15:5-6
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
KJV

In v.6, Jesus is speaking hypothetically. He didn't say, "when a man abide not in me". Jesus spoke this way to make a contrasting parallel with v.5. What he's really saying is that if someone claimed to be in Him and bore no fruit then they are cast into the fire. The Gr. term "menee" (Strong's 3306) also means not to depart. When a man does not remain "in Christ", this means he departed from Christ. And he "departed" because he was never really "in Him" to begin with. (Remember Judas who remained "with/in" Jesus for about 3-1/2 years?) In other words, if Jesus had said in v.6, "if a man departs from me", it would not change the sense of what the Lord said. But he employed the parallelism here to emphasize the extreme importance that there can be no true fruit bearing apart from the enabling power/grace of Christ.

https://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3306&t=KJV