Understanding God’s election

[Magenta]

Mark 2:10 (Luke 5:24, Matthew 9:6), Mark 2:17 (Luke 5:32, Matthew 9:13b), Acts 3:19-20 The Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins. “I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” Who are the righteous? There are none! No, not one. Repent, then, and turn back, so that your sins may be wiped away, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

We know about God through the gospel. We know God through revelation...Blessed are you Simon...for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father which is in heaven...Matthew 16.

“We know about God through the gospel. We know God through revelation...Blessed are you Simon...for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father which is in heaven.”

right God revealed himself through the gospel . Is it surprising Peter eas told God had revealed Jesus identity ? He was a chosen disciple and the rest of Israel had been made blind and deaf …..of course God revealed Jesus identity to Peter Jesus had been preaching the gospel to him

your making another secret thing God does for some and not for others bro but you won’t actually address that part your going in loops

this is Jesus giving people revelation that saves thier souls

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭

later he says to those who believed in him

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-3

My point has always been he doesnt then pick and choose which people will respond to him and which won’t

….the gospel literally is God speaking our salvation forth who believe him.

But a few of you have failed to understand Jesus chose his twelve apostles and said certain things to them that isn’t applicable to all people there was also a crowd of sinners who marvel led and followed after him thats who we all are

for instance this verse

“Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

is being spoken to Jesus twelve disciples who would build the church foundation after he parted by the spirit it’s not saying God chooses who is saved and who isn’t look at the co text of stuff brother

It’s the last supper and johns recounting of the conversation he had with them and even a prayer Jesus made …but in this forum oeople just get a verse that seems to say what they are saying and it’s all mixed up read from John 13 -17 that’s between Jesus and his disciples . The twelve not the church afterwards he also mentions us in his prayer in 17 at the end but notice what he’s saying about the twelve who followed him to the end of his earthly life

“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. ( Jesus testifying about them ) I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

( but later he includes us ) Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:6, 8-9, 20‬ ‭

That’s how people believe the gospel they hear the witness of his “sent ones “ who finished the biblical text of the nt

We aren’t like Levi bro a chosen called apostle we’re like the crowd of sinners that was following Jesus around marvelling at the wonders he was doing and listening to Gods word for the sinners …..we’re the multitude of sinners following the lord around being called to repentance not Levi the apostle called and specially chosen for a task and a glory and a throne by Jesus …..

And he went forth again by the sea side; and all the multitude resorted unto him, and he taught them.

And as he passed by, he saw Levi the son of Alphæus sitting at the receipt of custom, and said unto him, Follow me. ( he’s chosen an apostle ) And he arose and followed him. And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him.

And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners? When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭2:13-17‬ ‭

There’s a difference in Israel before jesus died and gentiles after he rose when the gospel was sent to them a few of you are lumping is general folks trying to be saved in with the apostles chosen and appointed in prophecy to do what they did

at he gospel was being taught to oeter jesus eas telling them who he was all along lol it’s written down but then he would say “ but don’t tell anyone else yet until I rise up “ he did this many times the Gospel is the revelation of God and then we thank also Gid , have the epistles which offer some more details and revelation so sure Gid reveals who Jesus is to people he does that through this process

“The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭

We believe through their word …..

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬


your going in circles brother the gospel is all revelation about Jesus the son God the father mankind salvation eternal judgement ect ect

If you look carefully at the context you’ll see he chose a group of men from Israel before he died and appointed then to preach the same gospel to the world after he rose and said whoever believes will be saved and whoever doesn’t will be damned

It’s a binary choice but then …not if we say “ I can’t choose “ nothing is a choice if we say “ I have no choice I can’t do it “ mankind is deceived bro Jesus tells us the truth and it’s not all sunshine and roses it’s deep and important stuff but we’ll never get it by arguing over single scriptures removed from context

it’s been a pleasure speaking with you here brother . You’ve always had a pleasant spirit and attitude and it’s very appreciated. God loves you deeply we can agree and i believe every other living soul as well .

This place seemed more beneficial a couple years ago im thinking of a break or maybe finding a different place so if I do owrt thanks for all the laughs and discussions bro see you on the flip side

 

[GWH]

I have not swamped the OP with a lot of Scripture quotations,
but hopefully you will recall the NT verses which confirm the following …

Man is doubly incapable of believing in Jesus and the Gospel
1 – Because of the disobedience (sin) of Adam and Eve,
all humans are born with an inherited sin nature,
and are bent on sinning instead of following God (Romans 3:9-18).
Having a saving faith is against their very nature!
2 - All unsaved humans are captive prisoners of Satan,
and are bent on doing whatever he wants them to do (2 Timothy 2:26).
Jesus came to set the captives of Satan free (Luke 4:18).
Having a saving faith is against our enemy’s plans for them,
which, of course, is spending eternity with Satan and his demons in hell.
If the God-worshipping Lydia (Acts 16:14) needs God to give her the necessary
faith to believe in Jesus and the Gospel, surely everyone does also!
Similarly, the “anyones” who believe in Jesus in verses such as John 3:16
are the ones whom God has given saving faith!

Father God elects (chooses) and calls whomever He wishes
Jesus says to the elect, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you ….” (John 16:15).
Surely, here is a strong hint that we should investigate this matter further.
Romans chapter 9 is the most famous proponent of God’s election …
“… that the purpose of election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls.
… So then, it is not of him who wills (to be elected, chosen, and called),
nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.” (Romans 9:11-16)
God gives grace to whomever He chooses, but no one deserves grace (unmerited favor)!
God gives justice to whomever He chooses, and everyone deserves justice!
God wishes that all could be saved, but it is not possible because He insists on His justice.
“You love justice and hate evil.” (Hebrews 1”9)
God is not willing that any (of us) should perish, but that all (of us) should repent …
… the “us” referring to His elect, who are promised salvation.
Christians are called to confess and repent of their on-going sins,
and the blood of Jesus will cleanse them of all their unrighteousness (1 John 1:7-9).

The reason why Father God chooses some, but not others
Father God chooses to elect some people for His great pleasure.
He chooses to elect some to demonstrate to the whole world
His great love, mercy, grace, etc. (Romans 9:23).
He chooses to elect some to be companions for His Son throughout eternity (Scriptural?).
Those not chosen are given justice, which sadly is what they deserve.

Those whom Father God gives to Jesus are guaranteed salvation
This is all about the unconditional security of the born-again believer.
Multitudes of NT verses are God’s promises of salvation given to His elect.
Surely, those of us who are born again should be continually praising God and
thanking Him for choosing us … and for the Holy Spirit sanctifying us unto holiness
… and for Jesus interceding for us before Father God in heaven.

A study of the parables of Jesus on the Hermeneutics thread led to understanding that doctrine to be a subcategory of election as follows:

Understanding the doctrine of parables is related to election. In order to develop a doctrine regarding the parables of Jesus, one must conduct a systematic study of every parable recorded in the gospel of Mathew in order to learn their meaning and purpose. The first parable is The Parable of the Seeds in MT 13:1-23, which sets the stage for all of the others.

In this parable a farmer sowed seed on four types of soil: a path, rocky ground, thorny ground, and fertile soil–with appropriate results. Discerning the meaning involved understanding the metaphors that were used, most of which were explained by Jesus in v.18-23: seed = GW re the KOH, understands = believes, healed = saved, ears = normal adult souls, hear = be good seed. The apparent meaning of the parable per v. 9 is thus, “Let all accountable souls be allowed to hear and be saved.”

However, this meaning is made problematic by what Jesus told his disciples between relating the parable and then explaining its meaning (v.10-11) regarding his purpose of speaking in parables: “The knowledge of the secrets of the KOH has been given to you (disciples), but not to them (the rest of the people).” Jesus said (in v.14-15) the people fulfilled IS 6:9-10, which says in part, “you will be ever seeing but never perceiving, for this people’s heart has become calloused… Otherwise they might… turn, and I would heal them.” In v.12 Jesus said, “Whoever has will be given more… and whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.”

A person might interpret what Jesus said regarding the secrets to mean that he wanted them to remain unknown except by his disciples, but a few verses later in MT 13:34 it says that Jesus spoke in parables in order to fulfill “what was spoken through the prophet: I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world”, which implies that he wants to share the secrets with the people.

Thus, unless these statements (MT 13:10-17 & 13:34-35) can be harmonized, one must choose between two contradictory interpretations: 1. Jesus purposefully hid knowledge from some while revealing it to others according to His will, or 2. Jesus allowed souls to reject saving knowledge or to accept it and be his disciples. Deciding which understanding to adopt necessitates considering the second parable of Jesus, The Parable of the Weeds in MT 13:24-30.

In this parable a man sowed wheat seeds in his field, but his enemy came while folks were sleeping and sowed weeds among the wheat. When it became apparent that the field was contaminated, the owner’s servants asked whether they should pull up the weeds, and he told them to wait until the harvest, at which time the weeds should be burned and the wheat gathered into his barn.

Later in the privacy of a house Jesus explained the meaning of this parable, saying that the good seed was sown by the Son of Man, the field is the world, the good seed stands for those who belong to the kingdom, the weeds are those who belong to the evil one, the enemy who sowed the bad seed is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. At the end of the age the Son of Man will send angels to weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and everyone who does evil and throw them into the blazing furnace where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, while the righteous will shine in the kingdom of their Father. Jesus concluded by saying, “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”

The mention of Judgment and the opposite destinies of happiness or hell indicates that Jesus employed parables as a means of pre-sifting souls by showing who would understand/believe or not. Some people opine that God/Jesus causes people to believe or not, but notice that in MT 13:10-15 Jesus did NOT say that he prevents people from becoming his disciples or that he causes people’s hearts to be calloused, so let us be careful not to pre-sift ourselves by projecting our own hatred onto the all-loving Christ. Understanding God/Christ to be all-loving is gained by searching the Scriptures for insight rather than implicitly accusing Jesus of hating his enemies, which borders on blasphemy against the loving Holy Spirit. The omnilove of Jesus is indicated by such Scriptures MT 23:37, in which Jesus lamented over Jerusalem’s lack of repentance or rejection of his preaching (cf. MT 22:39, JN 3:16, RM 5:6-8, 1TM 2:3-4).

We can see that deciding which understanding of the purpose of parables to adopt involves rejecting or accepting Scriptures teaching that God loves everyone, not only the elect or disciples of Jesus. Thus, the doctrine of parables is related to the doctrine of election as a subcategory. I choose to accept the teachings that God is omnilove or loves everyone and wants all to be saved but allows volition and thereby moral accountability to exist, so that souls may reject the Gospel and put faith in I-dolatry. I note that Jesus explained the Parable of the Seeds in plain language, and that the Parable of the Tenants passage indicated his enemies understood he was being critical of them.

Some folks might cite EX 10:1 as relevant for understanding the doctrine of parables (and election): “Then the Lord said to Moses, ‘Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them… that you may know that I am the Lord.'” To them I would suggest the following:

1. God’s hardening does not abrogate moral free will in a way that prevents anyone from being saved, but rather by this means God tweaks the river of history so that it flows in accordance with His Plan of Salvation, causing someone to be stubborn/obstinate without condemning them to hell for that reason.

2. OT writers did not distinguish between God’s intentional and permissive wills very clearly, so that IS 6:10 says, “Make the heart of this people calloused… otherwise they might… understand with their hearts and turn [repent] and be healed”, whereas when Jesus cited this passage in MT 13:15 he changed the wording to “For this people’s heart has become calloused… otherwise they might… understand with their hearts and turn and I would heal them.”

Might/May all be healed!

 

[Magenta]

Jesus' words in Matthew 13:11-13 (Mark 4:11-12; Luke 8:10) Prophecy of Isaiah 6:9 Fulfilled ~
The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. This is why I speak to them in parables: ‘Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.’

 

[lrs68]

You've done everything you can to not answer the question. Appreciate the discussion.
BTW...Jesus saw the Father pouring out judgment upon Him in both the instances you spoke of.

I actually did answer your question because if Jesus did everything He witnessed the Father doing, which my post made that conclusion, then the Father's Will was done 100% of the time.

It's like when Jesus said I go to the Father, My God and your God. His Deity as God wasn't saying that but the part of Him as 100% human being was declaring that. And even that was doing the Father's Will.

 

[Cameron143]

“We know about God through the gospel. We know God through revelation...Blessed are you Simon...for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father which is in heaven.”

right God revealed himself through the gospel . Is it surprising Peter eas told God had revealed Jesus identity ? He was a chosen disciple and the rest of Israel had been made blind and deaf …..of course God revealed Jesus identity to Peter Jesus had been preaching the gospel to him

your making another secret thing God does for some and not for others bro but you won’t actually address that part your going in loops

this is Jesus giving people revelation that saves thier souls

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭

later he says to those who believed in him

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-3

My point has always been he doesnt then pick and choose which people will respond to him and which won’t

….the gospel literally is God speaking our salvation forth who believe him.

But a few of you have failed to understand Jesus chose his twelve apostles and said certain things to them that isn’t applicable to all people there was also a crowd of sinners who marvel led and followed after him thats who we all are

for instance this verse

“Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

is being spoken to Jesus twelve disciples who would build the church foundation after he parted by the spirit it’s not saying God chooses who is saved and who isn’t look at the co text of stuff brother

It’s the last supper and johns recounting of the conversation he had with them and even a prayer Jesus made …but in this forum oeople just get a verse that seems to say what they are saying and it’s all mixed up read from John 13 -17 that’s between Jesus and his disciples . The twelve not the church afterwards he also mentions us in his prayer in 17 at the end but notice what he’s saying about the twelve who followed him to the end of his earthly life

“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. ( Jesus testifying about them ) I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

( but later he includes us ) Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:6, 8-9, 20‬ ‭

That’s how people believe the gospel they hear the witness of his “sent ones “ who finished the biblical text of the nt

We aren’t like Levi bro a chosen called apostle we’re like the crowd of sinners that was following Jesus around marvelling at the wonders he was doing and listening to Gods word for the sinners …..we’re the multitude of sinners following the lord around being called to repentance not Levi the apostle called and specially chosen for a task and a glory and a throne by Jesus …..

And he went forth again by the sea side; and all the multitude resorted unto him, and he taught them.

And as he passed by, he saw Levi the son of Alphæus sitting at the receipt of custom, and said unto him, Follow me. ( he’s chosen an apostle ) And he arose and followed him. And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him.

And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners? When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭2:13-17‬ ‭

There’s a difference in Israel before jesus died and gentiles after he rose when the gospel was sent to them a few of you are lumping is general folks trying to be saved in with the apostles chosen and appointed in prophecy to do what they did

at he gospel was being taught to oeter jesus eas telling them who he was all along lol it’s written down but then he would say “ but don’t tell anyone else yet until I rise up “ he did this many times the Gospel is the revelation of God and then we thank also Gid , have the epistles which offer some more details and revelation so sure Gid reveals who Jesus is to people he does that through this process

“The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭

We believe through their word …..

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬


your going in circles brother the gospel is all revelation about Jesus the son God the father mankind salvation eternal judgement ect ect

If you look carefully at the context you’ll see he chose a group of men from Israel before he died and appointed then to preach the same gospel to the world after he rose and said whoever believes will be saved and whoever doesn’t will be damned

It’s a binary choice but then …not if we say “ I can’t choose “ nothing is a choice if we say “ I have no choice I can’t do it “ mankind is deceived bro Jesus tells us the truth and it’s not all sunshine and roses it’s deep and important stuff but we’ll never get it by arguing over single scriptures removed from context

it’s been a pleasure speaking with you here brother . You’ve always had a pleasant spirit and attitude and it’s very appreciated. God loves you deeply we can agree and i believe every other living soul as well .

This place seemed more beneficial a couple years ago im thinking of a break or maybe finding a different place so if I do owrt thanks for all the laughs and discussions bro see you on the flip side

In Matthew 16, Peter proclaims that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. To this, Jesus says that this understanding that Peter has was not received through natural means, but revealed by God. Then Jesus goes on to say that through this revelation of the Father concerning the person of Christ is the means that Jesus is going to build His church.
Is the church built through natural understanding that a man comes to on his own or through a supernatural understanding given by God? Is there a difference between the two? In other words, would salvation occur apart from the revelation of God to an individual?

Two people go to church. Both hear the gospel. One is gloriously saved and the other unaffected. What accounts for the difference?

 

[Cameron143]

I actually did answer your question because if Jesus did everything He witnessed the Father doing, which my post made that conclusion, then the Father's Will was done 100% of the time.

It's like when Jesus said I go to the Father, My God and your God. His Deity as God wasn't saying that but the part of Him as 100% human being was declaring that. And even that was doing the Father's Will.

I appreciate all your responses. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Rufus]

This is your claim.

That someone can believe in Jesus through an act of self will, can say Jesus is Lord?

They might believe in Jesus for fifty years then fall away.

Could be your mother or sister who believes in Jesus but are not one of the elect.

No one says "Jesus is Lord" without the Spirit of God.

If someone has received God's gift of faith, they will never pass away. They will never fall away. They cannot because God Almighty himself has purified their hearts by [his gift of] faith (Act 15:9).

But what you can't see is the biblical truth that there is such a thing as spurious faith, which is precisely the subject matter of the Parable of the Four Soils. And this kind of faith is not God's gift! Rather, it's a product of a deceived and wicked heart. It's a faith that is self-generated by the flesh! And, yes, people with this kind of faith can have it for decades and never realize that that kind of faith is a one-way ticket to eternal perdition! As I have pointed out previously, there are literally millions of members of cults or even members of sound churches who have this kind of faith. They, like the people in Mat 7:23, believe Jesus is their Lord, yet their hearts are far removed from Him. They honor him with their lips, with external rituals, with their dead works, etc., but they have never had any sincere heart-felt belief in Him. Such is the pernicious nature of self-deceit!

I have previously provided biblical examples of people having fake faith. Here's, yet, another passage that makes that point. See Acts 19:11-16. These Jewish "exorcists" even called upon the name of Jesus -- but it did not end well for them.

 

[Rufus]

In Matthew 16, Peter proclaims that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. To this, Jesus says that this understanding that Peter has was not received through natural means, but revealed by God. Then Jesus goes on to say that through this revelation of the Father concerning the person of Christ is the means that Jesus is going to build His church.
Is the church built through natural understanding that a man comes to on his own or through a supernatural understanding given by God? Is there a difference between the two? In other words, would salvation occur apart from the revelation of God to an individual?

Two people go to church. Both hear the gospel. One is gloriously saved and the other unaffected. What accounts for the difference?

If FWT, it ain't God who makes the difference; for the buck does not stop with Him. A man's eternal destiny is supposedly in man's hand entirely. And this grievous error led me to ask a few weeks ago: Why even pray to God to save anyone, since He is NOT the determining factor in anyone's salvation?

 

[Rufus]

A study of the parables of Jesus on the Hermeneutics thread led to understanding that doctrine to be a subcategory of election as follows:

Understanding the doctrine of parables is related to election. In order to develop a doctrine regarding the parables of Jesus, one must conduct a systematic study of every parable recorded in the gospel of Mathew in order to learn their meaning and purpose. The first parable is The Parable of the Seeds in MT 13:1-23, which sets the stage for all of the others.

In this parable a farmer sowed seed on four types of soil: a path, rocky ground, thorny ground, and fertile soil–with appropriate results. Discerning the meaning involved understanding the metaphors that were used, most of which were explained by Jesus in v.18-23: seed = GW re the KOH, understands = believes, healed = saved, ears = normal adult souls, hear = be good seed. The apparent meaning of the parable per v. 9 is thus, “Let all accountable souls be allowed to hear and be saved.”

However, this meaning is made problematic by what Jesus told his disciples between relating the parable and then explaining its meaning (v.10-11) regarding his purpose of speaking in parables: “The knowledge of the secrets of the KOH has been given to you (disciples), but not to them (the rest of the people).” Jesus said (in v.14-15) the people fulfilled IS 6:9-10, which says in part, “you will be ever seeing but never perceiving, for this people’s heart has become calloused… Otherwise they might… turn, and I would heal them.” In v.12 Jesus said, “Whoever has will be given more… and whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.”

A person might interpret what Jesus said regarding the secrets to mean that he wanted them to remain unknown except by his disciples, but a few verses later in MT 13:34 it says that Jesus spoke in parables in order to fulfill “what was spoken through the prophet: I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world”, which implies that he wants to share the secrets with the people.

Thus, unless these statements (MT 13:10-17 & 13:34-35) can be harmonized, one must choose between two contradictory interpretations: 1. Jesus purposefully hid knowledge from some while revealing it to others according to His will, or 2. Jesus allowed souls to reject saving knowledge or to accept it and be his disciples. Deciding which understanding to adopt necessitates considering the second parable of Jesus, The Parable of the Weeds in MT 13:24-30.

In this parable a man sowed wheat seeds in his field, but his enemy came while folks were sleeping and sowed weeds among the wheat. When it became apparent that the field was contaminated, the owner’s servants asked whether they should pull up the weeds, and he told them to wait until the harvest, at which time the weeds should be burned and the wheat gathered into his barn.

Later in the privacy of a house Jesus explained the meaning of this parable, saying that the good seed was sown by the Son of Man, the field is the world, the good seed stands for those who belong to the kingdom, the weeds are those who belong to the evil one, the enemy who sowed the bad seed is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. At the end of the age the Son of Man will send angels to weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and everyone who does evil and throw them into the blazing furnace where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, while the righteous will shine in the kingdom of their Father. Jesus concluded by saying, “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”

The mention of Judgment and the opposite destinies of happiness or hell indicates that Jesus employed parables as a means of pre-sifting souls by showing who would understand/believe or not. Some people opine that God/Jesus causes people to believe or not, but notice that in MT 13:10-15 Jesus did NOT say that he prevents people from becoming his disciples or that he causes people’s hearts to be calloused, so let us be careful not to pre-sift ourselves by projecting our own hatred onto the all-loving Christ. Understanding God/Christ to be all-loving is gained by searching the Scriptures for insight rather than implicitly accusing Jesus of hating his enemies, which borders on blasphemy against the loving Holy Spirit. The omnilove of Jesus is indicated by such Scriptures MT 23:37, in which Jesus lamented over Jerusalem’s lack of repentance or rejection of his preaching (cf. MT 22:39, JN 3:16, RM 5:6-8, 1TM 2:3-4).

We can see that deciding which understanding of the purpose of parables to adopt involves rejecting or accepting Scriptures teaching that God loves everyone, not only the elect or disciples of Jesus. Thus, the doctrine of parables is related to the doctrine of election as a subcategory. I choose to accept the teachings that God is omnilove or loves everyone and wants all to be saved but allows volition and thereby moral accountability to exist, so that souls may reject the Gospel and put faith in I-dolatry. I note that Jesus explained the Parable of the Seeds in plain language, and that the Parable of the Tenants passage indicated his enemies understood he was being critical of them.

Some folks might cite EX 10:1 as relevant for understanding the doctrine of parables (and election): “Then the Lord said to Moses, ‘Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them… that you may know that I am the Lord.'” To them I would suggest the following:

1. God’s hardening does not abrogate moral free will in a way that prevents anyone from being saved, but rather by this means God tweaks the river of history so that it flows in accordance with His Plan of Salvation, causing someone to be stubborn/obstinate without condemning them to hell for that reason.

2. OT writers did not distinguish between God’s intentional and permissive wills very clearly, so that IS 6:10 says, “Make the heart of this people calloused… otherwise they might… understand with their hearts and turn [repent] and be healed”, whereas when Jesus cited this passage in MT 13:15 he changed the wording to “For this people’s heart has become calloused… otherwise they might… understand with their hearts and turn and I would heal them.”

Might/May all be healed!

There's so much wrong with your post that it probably would take me several posts to correct everything! Therefore, I'm only going to focus on what I highlighted above.

If you're going to focus on one key word in a passage to try to make a point, I would strongly recommend that you conduct your own word search for purposes of definition and usage. "Might/May" is definitely not the meaning of the word or how it's used. "Might" in scripture is most often used to denote "have the ability to", which just so happens to be the primary definition of this Old English word in my M-W Collegiate Dictionary. And this definition comports quite nicely the way the vast majority of the more literal translations (e.g. KJV, NASB, Darby, ESV, etc.) render this Gr. term, "eido" (Strong's 1492), which is "lest they should see". This Gr. term, therefore, does not mean "perhaps" they'll see or "maybe" they'll see or "possibly" they'll see", as you have claimed above.

If you had checked a site like BLBCLASSIC.ORG, you would have learned the true definitions and how the term is used in the NT, and you would not see even a remote hint of "maybe" or "perhaps" or "possibly" connected with this word that is used well over 600 times. Here's the link:

https://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G1492&t=KJV&page=2

Even the larger context of the passage bears this truth out. The disciples were actually GIVEN by God through Christ the knowledge of the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven -- BUT (which almost always denotes a contrast) it was not given to "them" (13:11). Jesus didn't say that it was given to "them" but they blew an important "freewill" assignment -- or that they were given the opportunity to understand and have this knowledge but instead decided against it. This [saving] knowledge simply was never given to many others.

 

[Cameron143]

If FWT, it ain't God who makes the difference; for the buck does not stop with Him. A man's eternal destiny is supposedly in man's hand entirely. And this grievous error led me to ask a few weeks ago: Why even pray to God to save anyone, since He is NOT the determining factor in anyone's salvation?

Recently reading through the early chapters of Ephesians I was struck by how much of what is accomplished for the child of God is attributed to God:
Ephesians 1
Verse 1...by the will of God...
Verse 3: Who hath blessed...
Verse 4...as He hath chosen...
Verse 5...having predestinated us...
Verse 6...He hath made us...
Verse 8...He hath abounded...
Verse 9...having made known...
Verse 10...He might gather together...
Verse 11...Him who worketh all things...
Verse 13...ye were sealed...

Ephesians 2
Verse 1...you hath He quickened...
Verse 4...but God...He loved us...
Verse 5...hath quickened us together with Christ...
Verse 6...hath raised us up together...made us sit together in heavenly places...
Verse 8...by grace are you saved...not of yourselves...

Even the prayer Paul prayed is about what he is asking God to do for them:
Verse 17...wisdom and understanding...
Verse 18...enlightenment and knowledge...
Verse 19...the greatness of His power...

 

[Rufus]

Recently reading through the early chapters of Ephesians I was struck by how much of what is accomplished for the child of God is attributed to God:
Ephesians 1
Verse 1...by the will of God...
Verse 3: Who hath blessed...
Verse 4...as He hath chosen...
Verse 5...having predestinated us...
Verse 6...He hath made us...
Verse 8...He hath abounded...
Verse 9...having made known...
Verse 10...He might gather together...
Verse 11...Him who worketh all things...
Verse 13...ye were sealed...

Ephesians 2
Verse 1...you hath He quickened...
Verse 4...but God...He loved us...
Verse 5...hath quickened us together with Christ...
Verse 6...hath raised us up together...made us sit together in heavenly places...
Verse 8...by grace are you saved...not of yourselves...

Even the prayer Paul prayed is about what he is asking God to do for them:
Verse 17...wisdom and understanding...
Verse 18...enlightenment and knowledge...
Verse 19...the greatness of His power...

Good post! This is how the Reformers came up with the fifth sola: Glory to God! God gets ALL the glory, not just 99%. Man has absolutely nothing about which to boast, including his supposed "freewill".

 

[Rufus]

A study of the parables of Jesus on the Hermeneutics thread led to understanding that doctrine to be a subcategory of election as follows:

Understanding the doctrine of parables is related to election. In order to develop a doctrine regarding the parables of Jesus, one must conduct a systematic study of every parable recorded in the gospel of Mathew in order to learn their meaning and purpose. The first parable is The Parable of the Seeds in MT 13:1-23, which sets the stage for all of the others.

In this parable a farmer sowed seed on four types of soil: a path, rocky ground, thorny ground, and fertile soil–with appropriate results. Discerning the meaning involved understanding the metaphors that were used, most of which were explained by Jesus in v.18-23: seed = GW re the KOH, understands = believes, healed = saved, ears = normal adult souls, hear = be good seed. The apparent meaning of the parable per v. 9 is thus, “Let all accountable souls be allowed to hear and be saved.”

However, this meaning is made problematic by what Jesus told his disciples between relating the parable and then explaining its meaning (v.10-11) regarding his purpose of speaking in parables: “The knowledge of the secrets of the KOH has been given to you (disciples), but not to them (the rest of the people).” Jesus said (in v.14-15) the people fulfilled IS 6:9-10, which says in part, “you will be ever seeing but never perceiving, for this people’s heart has become calloused… Otherwise they might… turn, and I would heal them.” In v.12 Jesus said, “Whoever has will be given more… and whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.”

A person might interpret what Jesus said regarding the secrets to mean that he wanted them to remain unknown except by his disciples, but a few verses later in MT 13:34 it says that Jesus spoke in parables in order to fulfill “what was spoken through the prophet: I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world”, which implies that he wants to share the secrets with the people.

Thus, unless these statements (MT 13:10-17 & 13:34-35) can be harmonized, one must choose between two contradictory interpretations: 1. Jesus purposefully hid knowledge from some while revealing it to others according to His will, or 2. Jesus allowed souls to reject saving knowledge or to accept it and be his disciples. Deciding which understanding to adopt necessitates considering the second parable of Jesus, The Parable of the Weeds in MT 13:24-30.

In this parable a man sowed wheat seeds in his field, but his enemy came while folks were sleeping and sowed weeds among the wheat. When it became apparent that the field was contaminated, the owner’s servants asked whether they should pull up the weeds, and he told them to wait until the harvest, at which time the weeds should be burned and the wheat gathered into his barn.

Later in the privacy of a house Jesus explained the meaning of this parable, saying that the good seed was sown by the Son of Man, the field is the world, the good seed stands for those who belong to the kingdom, the weeds are those who belong to the evil one, the enemy who sowed the bad seed is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. At the end of the age the Son of Man will send angels to weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and everyone who does evil and throw them into the blazing furnace where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, while the righteous will shine in the kingdom of their Father. Jesus concluded by saying, “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”

The mention of Judgment and the opposite destinies of happiness or hell indicates that Jesus employed parables as a means of pre-sifting souls by showing who would understand/believe or not. Some people opine that God/Jesus causes people to believe or not, but notice that in MT 13:10-15 Jesus did NOT say that he prevents people from becoming his disciples or that he causes people’s hearts to be calloused, so let us be careful not to pre-sift ourselves by projecting our own hatred onto the all-loving Christ. Understanding God/Christ to be all-loving is gained by searching the Scriptures for insight rather than implicitly accusing Jesus of hating his enemies, which borders on blasphemy against the loving Holy Spirit. The omnilove of Jesus is indicated by such Scriptures MT 23:37, in which Jesus lamented over Jerusalem’s lack of repentance or rejection of his preaching (cf. MT 22:39, JN 3:16, RM 5:6-8, 1TM 2:3-4).

We can see that deciding which understanding of the purpose of parables to adopt involves rejecting or accepting Scriptures teaching that God loves everyone, not only the elect or disciples of Jesus. Thus, the doctrine of parables is related to the doctrine of election as a subcategory. I choose to accept the teachings that God is omnilove or loves everyone and wants all to be saved but allows volition and thereby moral accountability to exist, so that souls may reject the Gospel and put faith in I-dolatry. I note that Jesus explained the Parable of the Seeds in plain language, and that the Parable of the Tenants passage indicated his enemies understood he was being critical of them.

Some folks might cite EX 10:1 as relevant for understanding the doctrine of parables (and election): “Then the Lord said to Moses, ‘Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them… that you may know that I am the Lord.'” To them I would suggest the following:

1. God’s hardening does not abrogate moral free will in a way that prevents anyone from being saved, but rather by this means God tweaks the river of history so that it flows in accordance with His Plan of Salvation, causing someone to be stubborn/obstinate without condemning them to hell for that reason.

2. OT writers did not distinguish between God’s intentional and permissive wills very clearly, so that IS 6:10 says, “Make the heart of this people calloused… otherwise they might… understand with their hearts and turn [repent] and be healed”, whereas when Jesus cited this passage in MT 13:15 he changed the wording to “For this people’s heart has become calloused… otherwise they might… understand with their hearts and turn and I would heal them.”

Might/May all be healed!

I have a question about this "omnilove" of God, i.e. whereby you say God "loves everyone": How do you square your opinion about the nature of God's love with Prov 11:1 and 11:20, wherein the former teaches that God detests (or abhors) dishonest scales, and the latter verse declares that God detests or abhors (same Heb term as v.1) men with perverse hearts?

 

[Rufus]

This is an appropriate devotional for this thread given by Spurgeon. Some here will relish the insights, others here will not, sadly.


"Then opened He their understanding, that they might understand the Scriptures."
Luke 24:45

He whom we viewed last evening as opening Scripture, we here perceive opening the understanding. In the first work He has many fellow-labourers, but in the second He stands alone; many can bring the Scriptures to the mind, but the Lord alone can prepare the mind to receive the Scriptures. Our Lord Jesus differs from all other teachers; they reach the ear, but He instructs the heart; they deal with the outward letter, but He imparts an inward taste for the truth, by which we perceive its savour and spirit. The most unlearned of men become ripe scholars in the school of grace when the Lord Jesus by His Holy Spirit unfolds the mysteries of the kingdom to them, and grants the divine anointing by which they are enabled to behold the invisible. Happy are we if we have had our understandings cleared and strengthened by the Master! How many men of profound learning are ignorant of eternal things! They know the killing letter of revelation, but its killing spirit they cannot discern; they have a veil upon their hearts which the eyes of carnal reason cannot penetrate. Such was our case a little time ago; we who now see were once utterly blind; truth was to us as beauty in the dark, a thing unnoticed and neglected. Had it not been for the love of Jesus we should have remained to this moment in utter ignorance, for without His gracious opening of our understanding, we could no more have attained to spiritual knowledge than an infant can climb the Pyramids, or an ostrich fly up to the stars. Jesus' College is the only one in which God's truth can be really learned; other schools may teach us what is to be believed, but Christ's alone can show us how to believe it. Let us sit at the feet of Jesus, and by earnest prayer call in His blessed aid that our dull wits may grow brighter, and our feeble understandings may receive heavenly things.

 

[GWH]

There's so much wrong with your post that it probably would take me several posts to correct everything! Therefore, I'm only going to focus on what I highlighted above.

If you're going to focus on one key word in a passage to try to make a point, I would strongly recommend that you conduct your own word search for purposes of definition and usage. "Might/May" is definitely not the meaning of the word or how it's used. "Might" in scripture is most often used to denote "have the ability to", which just so happens to be the primary definition of this Old English word in my M-W Collegiate Dictionary. And this definition comports quite nicely the way the vast majority of the more literal translations (e.g. KJV, NASB, Darby, ESV, etc.) render this Gr. term, "eido" (Strong's 1492), which is "lest they should see". This Gr. term, therefore, does not mean "perhaps" they'll see or "maybe" they'll see or "possibly" they'll see", as you have claimed above.

If you had checked a site like BLBCLASSIC.ORG, you would have learned the true definitions and how the term is used in the NT, and you would not see even a remote hint of "maybe" or "perhaps" or "possibly" connected with this word that is used well over 600 times. Here's the link:

https://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G1492&t=KJV&page=2

Even the larger context of the passage bears this truth out. The disciples were actually GIVEN by God through Christ the knowledge of the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven -- BUT (which almost always denotes a contrast) it was not given to "them" (13:11). Jesus didn't say that it was given to "them" but they blew an important "freewill" assignment -- or that they were given the opportunity to understand and have this knowledge but instead decided against it. This [saving] knowledge simply was never given to many others.

Thanks for your opinion, although I do not see what you highlighted.

As for may/might meaning "have the ability to", that is exactly the meaning I intend.

Re God's love: His love for every sinner squares or harmonizes quite easily with His hatred of every sin.

 

[BillyBob]

"Then opened He their understanding, that they might understand the Scriptures."
Luke 24:45

I had no sooner read Spurgeon's morning and evening and signed in to CC, when I saw your post.

It is true that only God can open our eyes to the truth. Sometimes it is through men whom He has sent, other times it is His personal visit with us. Either way, it is He and only HE who opens our heart and brings understanding!

 

[ATG]

Seals also go inside circuses, but if you ain't sealed on the inside, you ain't saved but are outside the body!

True. If the outer man is only sealed, then it's man's religion, not God's inward regeneration and pure religion of Jesus Christ. The Spirit always works first within the spirit of man.

We could say the life we live in the body is sealed with the sanctification of the Spirit, but that must first begin with the inner man of the heart:

Mat 23:26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

I'd say the seal of the Spirit of holiness is the Father's stamp of aproval upon the soul redeemed by the Son.

2Ti 2:19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

 

[ATG]

The Elect of God Defined.

The elect of God are those who God foreknown would, as believers without willful unbelief, ultimately choose to cooperate with His grace within the sound doctrine of Jesus Christ and the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

True, but foreknown is foredetermined nor prechosen before being created in the world. Knowing beforehand is not necessarily determining beforehand. God foreknows all things by watching all things come to pass, not by determining what everyone will do, before we do it. That is akin to old pagan fatalistic theology. It rules out living by faith, but only by prechosen determination of 'the gods'.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

We are all free to interpret Scipture with a certain meaning, unless is violates other Scripture that can only be interpreted one way.

Mat 22:14For many are called, but few are chosen.

If all those that will be in Christ Jesus, are prechosen before the foundation of the world, then there would not be any present choosing in this life as the Scripture says. Instead the Scripture would say, Many are called, but few are prechosen. Also, only the few prechosen would be called, since God does not call in vain them, that He has already rejected before creation. And finally, choosing is after being called in this life, not before.

Both grammatically and doctrinally Eph 1:4 can be interpreted, that God has determined before the foundation of the world, that those who are chosen by Him in the world, should live holy and without blame in Christ Jesus.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We that are called and chosen in this life are preordained, that we should walk worthy of the Lord.

 

[ATG]

“

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-3

My point has always been he doesnt then pick and choose which people will respond to him and which won’t

This is spot on. God is not a respector of persons, otherwise, He would never choose any Gentiles for His people. His call is to all, and His choice is to all that answer the call with yea and amen.

Many are called to repent, but only few repent and are chosen to live and walk with Him.

“
“Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

is being spoken to Jesus twelve disciples who would build the church foundation after he parted by the spirit it’s not saying God chooses who is saved and who isn’t look at the co text of stuff brother

Exactly again. Very good. It makes perfect sense. In John 15 Jesus is speaking of branches in His vine. He is speaking of being chosen and ordained for His ministry, not of being chosen from the world to become saints by repentance from dead works.

 

[Inquisitor]

True, but foreknown is foredetermined nor prechosen before being created in the world. Knowing beforehand is not necessarily determining beforehand. God foreknows all things by watching all things come to pass, not by determining what everyone will do, before we do it. That is akin to old pagan fatalistic theology. It rules out living by faith, but only by prechosen determination of 'the gods'.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

We are all free to interpret Scipture with a certain meaning, unless is violates other Scripture that can only be interpreted one way.

Mat 22:14For many are called, but few are chosen.

If all those that will be in Christ Jesus, are prechosen before the foundation of the world, then there would not be any present choosing in this life as the Scripture says. Instead the Scripture would say, Many are called, but few are prechosen. Also, only the few prechosen would be called, since God does not call in vain them, that He has already rejected before creation. And finally, choosing is after being called in this life, not before.

Both grammatically and doctrinally Eph 1:4 can be interpreted, that God has determined before the foundation of the world, that those who are chosen by Him in the world, should live holy and without blame in Christ Jesus.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We that are called and chosen in this life are preordained, that we should walk worthy of the Lord.

Hole in one.