Understanding God’s election

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I

Inquisitor

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Cameron143 said:
So...the awakening is from God? And this is what drives their desire to seek after Him?
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The Hindu religion has many gods.

Some of the most important gods in Hinduism are Vishnu, Shiva, Ganesha, Krishna, Sarasvati, Durga, and Kali.

Are these folk enlightened?

The Muslim religion has their god, Allah. Incidentally, Allah is the god of Abraham.

Are they driven to Allah by the creation they see all around them?

We are talking about nearly 40% of the world's population contained in other religions.

Do these folk make a choice to worship other gods?

Or does God make them worship false deities?
 
I

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Rufus said:
The much better question would have been what did Jesus mean by "he takes away"? Also, you ignore the context once again. If someone doesn't bear fruit, then it's because they did not remain in Christ (v.4). And whoever does not remain in Christ was never a true believer to begin with.
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They can't be attached to the vine and then be severed unless they first believed.

That vine is Jesus Christ by the way.

I don't believe that God would grant that knowledge of Jesus Christ and then discard them!

They were partially elect?

How could they know about Jesus unless they had the Holy Spirit.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Inquisitor said:
The Hindu religion has many gods.

Some of the most important gods in Hinduism are Vishnu, Shiva, Ganesha, Krishna, Sarasvati, Durga, and Kali.

Are these folk enlightened?

The Muslim religion has their god, Allah. Incidentally, Allah is the god of Abraham.

Are they driven to Allah by the creation they see all around them?

We are talking about nearly 40% of the world's population contained in other religions.

Do these folk make a choice to worship other gods?

Or does God make them worship false deities?
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They follow what they are taught unless and until God gives enlightenment and life.
 
R

Rufus

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lrs68 said:
I do agree but it does show those who reject and accept God were both revealed that God is real and exists.
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Yes, everyone receives Natural Revelation but not everyone is raised from the dead spiritually; for the Son gives life to whom He is pleased to give it (Jn 5:21).
 
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lrs68

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Rufus said:
Yes, everyone receives Natural Revelation but not everyone is raised from the dead spiritually; for the Son gives life to whom He is pleased to give it (Jn 5:21).
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Why wouldn't God be pleased to give someone eternal life who believes in Him and seeks Him after the natural revelation?
 
R

Rufus

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Inquisitor said:
They can't be attached to the vine and then be severed unless they first believed.

That vine is Jesus Christ by the way.

I don't believe that God would grant that knowledge of Jesus Christ and then discard them!

They were partially elect?

How could they know about Jesus unless they had the Holy Spirit.
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Then how do you explain this passage:

Heb 6:4-6
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened , who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace?
NIV

Scripture provides two stellar examples of people who are described in this passage: King Saul and Judas. God revealed a great deal to both of these people, yet both of them fell away, proving their faith was spurious to begin with. In both cases, there is no account in scripture for either of these two being brought back to repentance!
 
R

Rufus

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lrs68 said:
Why wouldn't God be pleased to give someone eternal life who believes in Him and seeks Him after the natural revelation?
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But EVERYONE is privy to Natural Revelation. But the only ones who will respond positively to Natural Revelation and Special Revelation are those who have been raised from their spiritual tombs; for the dead have no ability to see with their eyes or hear with their ears apart from antecedent life.
 
L

lrs68

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Cameron143 said:
2 things:
...the natural man does not seek God,
...you have faith without the word of God.
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Rufus said:
But EVERYONE is privy to Natural Revelation. But the only ones who will respond positively to Natural Revelation and Special Revelation are those who have been raised from their spiritual tombs; for the dead have no ability to see with their eyes or hear with their ears apart from antecedent life.
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If someone can know about God by the manifestation they are able to attempt to learn more about God. To me, that is a similar process to not knowing God, then hearing about God and choosing God.

If someone chooses to go to Church after witnessing the manifestation of God and then hears about God it actually began from the manifestation.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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lrs68 said:
If someone can know about God by the manifestation they are able to attempt to learn more about God. To me, that is a similar process to not knowing God, then hearing about God and choosing God.

If someone chooses to go to Church after witnessing the manifestation of God and then hears about God it actually began from the manifestation.
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Sure, it can begin there. But if one is seeking God, how can he be part of those who do not seek after God?

Something has already changed?
 
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lrs68

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Cameron143 said:
Sure, it can begin there. But if one is seeking God, how can he be part of those who do not seek after God?

Something has already changed?
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Personal choice.
Everyone has the manifestation of God.
Most reject but some choose to attend Church and see what it's all about.

Not everyone saved in a particular Church building was born to parents already believing in God and attending Church. Many come from families who reject God but they they chose to go to a Church and learn more about the God they had manifested to them.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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lrs68 said:
Personal choice.
Everyone has the manifestation of God.
Most reject but some choose to attend Church and see what it's all about.

Not everyone saved in a particular Church building was born to parents already believing in God and attending Church. Many come from families who reject God but they they chose to go to a Church and learn more about the God they had manifested to them.
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Is this God drawing them to Himself?
 
Magenta

Magenta

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Cameron143 said:
Some do and some don't. But biblically, hearing engenders understanding and enlightenment.
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Hearing is often used as if just identifying the fact that vibrational frequencies of sound are being detected by one's ears is enough... which I would liken to, I can hear someone speak Chinese, but it is just gibberish to me, and to the natural man, that is no different than hearing the gospel message, which is foolishness to them. Hearing must encompass understanding, and that is given, and explicitly stated, in many places within Scripture, with Jesus telling us He came to open the eyes and ears of the blind and deaf, and other passages of Scripture where we are told God opened someone's heart and/or mind so they could understand... The natural man is described as darkness itself, and darkness does not comprehend the Light. Something has to change first, which is not simply a matter of the natural man making a moral decision with his hostile-to-God mind to believe that which is foolishness to him. His stony heart cannot produce the fruit of faith which comes only from a good tree. Thank God for giving us a new heart that we may love Him!!!
 
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Rufus

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lrs68 said:
If someone can know about God by the manifestation they are able to attempt to learn more about God. To me, that is a similar process to not knowing God, then hearing about God and choosing God.

If someone chooses to go to Church after witnessing the manifestation of God and then hears about God it actually began from the manifestation.
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Only if the Father effectually draws them to his Son since no one naturally seeks after the God of the Bible.

Also, we have to understand what Jn 5:27 is NOT saying. Jesus didn't say that he gives life to anyone who wants it. Nor did he say that He gives life to all who seek him. Nor did he say that he gives life to everyone after they exercise faith. Rather, Jesus gives life to whom he wishes.
 
L

lrs68

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Rufus said:
Only if the Father effectually draws them to his Son since no one naturally seeks after the God of the Bible.

Also, we have to understand what Jn 5:27 is NOT saying. Jesus didn't say that he gives life to anyone who wants it. Nor did he say that He gives life to all who seek him. Nor did he say that he gives life to everyone after they exercise faith. Rather, Jesus gives life to whom he wishes.
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lrs68 said:
I've been tying that emphasis together but we know people are still able to reject it (Romans 1).
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Cameron143

Cameron143

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lrs68 said:
I've been tying that emphasis together but we know people are still able to reject it (Romans 1).
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It is the fallen natural man's default position to reject natural revelation because the things of God are foolishness to him. Neither is his disposition to seek after God. This is why God must draw and enlighten him to begin with.
In Romans 1, is anyone pursuing God?
 
I

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Rufus said:
Then how do you explain this passage:

Heb 6:4-6
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened , who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace?
NIV

Scripture provides two stellar examples of people who are described in this passage: King Saul and Judas. God revealed a great deal to both of these people, yet both of them fell away, proving their faith was spurious to begin with. In both cases, there is no account in scripture for either of these two being brought back to repentance!
Click to expand...
They shared in the Holy Spirit and they tasted the heavenly gift.

They were enlightened and goodness of the word of God.

Add to that they also experienced the powers of the coming age.

So are you claiming that God led them into the salvation experience and then back out again?

Would Jesus ever do that to someone?
 
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