To The Unbelievers

[Aaron56]

It's surprising because alternative thinking is that Jesus was conceived by the Spirit, never subject to what you've referred to as "disconnection" as was the first Adam (except what some believe happened on the cross) and that there is a ministry of the Spirit connected with service that is not the same as birth.

I'm not sure I'll continue this as we've been requested to remain in line with the OP and I've already strayed from that. If you and others continue this discussion, maybe I'll join back in.

True. Jesus was never disconnected from the Father. Adam was not until he sinned.

I agree, this is a bit off-topic. Message me if you have more questions.

I will say, though, by understanding these things our dealings with unbelievers will change. First, notice that there are no "non-believers" in scripture. There are only "unbelievers". That's because "belief" is the default, not the absence of it.

 

[studier]

True. Jesus was never disconnected from the Father. Adam was not until he sinned.

I agree, this is a bit off-topic. Message me if you have more questions.

Thanks.

 

[ocean]

As I understand scripture, yes.

The Holy Spirit does not indwell unbelievers which is what a person would be if they have not accepted Christ.

13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1

As plainly written above, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit AFTER we believe, having heard the word (of truth). In fact, we are sealed
with the Holy Spirit. Anyone teaching that the Holy Spirit enters a person in order to create belief in God does not, in fact, understand
the progression of salvation or how we get there.

Does God draw us by His Spirit before we believe? I believe He does BUT He does not force us to accept Him. We hear the gospel and then we believe or accept and then the Holy Spirit seals us. There is no other way to interpret the above verses or glow them up with
scripture removed from context, no matter the effort applied

 

[Cameron143]

The Holy Spirit does not indwell unbelievers which is what a person would be if they have not accepted Christ.

13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1

As plainly written above, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit AFTER we believe, having heard the word (of truth). In fact, we are sealed
with the Holy Spirit. Anyone teaching that the Holy Spirit enters a person in order to create belief in God does not, in fact, understand
the progression of salvation or how we get there.

Does God draw us by His Spirit before we believe? I believe He does BUT He does not force us to accept Him. We hear the gospel and then we believe or accept and then the Holy Spirit seals us. There is no other way to interpret the above verses or glow them up with
scripture removed from context, no matter the effort applied

You obviously believe that sealing with the Spirit is the same as indwelling with the Spirit. I do not.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

What you've just said is not complex. What I'm unclear of is what you have not answered. What does fallen natural man's spirit have and not have ability to do? Now I'm staying with "ability" because I think there needs to be some fixed wording in this rather than moving around from strength, to effort, to energy.

Does fallen natural man have the ability to resist the Spirit? I understand you to answer, Yes.

Does fallen natural man have the ability to cease resisting the Spirit? I'm unclear re: your answer.

Is fallen natural man's choice involved in this?

I hope this is simple enough.

“What does fallen natural man's spirit have and not have ability to do? “

everyone with a human body is fallen and natural it’s our flesh it’s why they need a renewed spiritual relationship with Gods spirit. So we can just say “ what is mankind capable of

Yes.

We often ignore that even Jesus did not receive the Holy Spirit, in time and space, until after His 30th birthday. So, He was equipped with only what Adam had when Adam walked with God until the Holy Spirit descended upon Him.

“Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles….. he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭42:1, 3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

and there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness.

And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:9-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭59:20-21‬ ‭

 

[studier]

“What does fallen natural man's spirit have and not have ability to do? “

everyone with a human body is fallen and natural it’s our flesh it’s why they need a renewed spiritual relationship with Gods spirit. So we can just say “ what is mankind capable of

I was following and retaining the best I could the terminology between @Aaron56 and @Cameron143 where I first joined that discussion to make certain I understood where they might agree and disagree with one another. These discussions can be very nuanced by the words and phrases we each use and even when we use the same words it doesn't mean we have the same definition in mind.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

op: to the UNbelievers?:

Undiluted Wrath And Undiluted GRACE!

I apologize for the error - was close, but wrong page - should be:

Undiluted Wrath And Undiluted GRACE!

Amen.

 

[keepingthingsreal]

Okay.

Let me check to see if this thread is back on topic...

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Yeah we better let all the unbelievers here in the bible forum discussion this one

In less it has changed, these threads are open to the public and people can click on them to read. So anyone can come across it.

 

[ocean]

You obviously believe that sealing with the Spirit is the same as indwelling with the Spirit. I do not.

I am not sure a second reading of my actual post would elicit a better and more thoughtful response from you so I will save you the trouble. That is not what I said; I posted scripture and simply expounded on that. How you derive a response involving the word 'obviously', as though you are sure of a superior thought or belief, seems to indicate you think you have the ability to read minds. You (pardon my use of the word here) OBVIOUSLY do not.

Scripture indicates we are sealed when we accept Jesus. I said nothing about being indwelt. If I were to think being sealed is the same as being indwelt, I would have said so. Why are you trying to create doubt about my post?

You have conveniently ignored the actual scripture and the fact your view does not agree with the Bible. Is it any use to ask you not to
twist my words or even try to make it seem I said things that I never said? I wonder

 

[Cameron143]

I am not sure a second reading of my actual post would elicit a better and more thoughtful response from you so I will save you the trouble. That is not what I said; I posted scripture and simply expounded on that. How you derive a response involving the word 'obviously', as though you are sure of a superior thought or belief, seems to indicate you think you have the ability to read minds. You (pardon my use of the word here) OBVIOUSLY do not.

Scripture indicates we are sealed when we accept Jesus. I said nothing about being indwelt. If I were to think being sealed is the same as being indwelt, I would have said so. Why are you trying to create doubt about my post?

You have conveniently ignored the actual scripture and the fact your view does not agree with the Bible. Is it any use to ask you not to
twist my words or even try to make it seem I said things that I never said? I wonder

My apologies. That wasn't my intention. What I meant was obvious was the difference in our views, and not that one view was superior to the other.
There are plenty of people I disagree with here and we have been able to discuss ideas without losing respect for the individual. Hopefully we'll be able to do the same.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

In less it has changed, these threads are open to the public and people can click on them to read. So anyone can come across it.

Yeah sorry I was just being a wise cracker at someone else . Foolishness

 

[GWH]

1 Corinthians 15:17
English Standard Version
17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.

Alright, those of the unbelieving world. The easiest way to disprove Christianity is by disproving the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus.

For the Christian everything hinges off of the resurrection because not only did Jesus foretell that it would occur but it ultimately proved beyond a doubt that He was God.

John 10:29-31
English Standard Version
29 My Father, who has given them to me,[a] is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

30 I and the Father are one.”

31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him.

The authenticity of the Old Testament was confirmed by Jesus who taught from it and due to the abundance of manuscripts we know we have the same Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic translation despite a few misspelled words or scribal additions.

Jesus confirmed in His own words the legitimacy of creation, Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, Job, Noah and the flood, The Jewish exodus, Moses and the Torah, Jonah and the giant sea creature, Daniel, King David, etc. All were confirmed and spoken of as being real people and true events.

For Christianity, it wouldn't matter if the Old Testament was 100% true and then the resurrection be false. Then our faith is futile and our only hope would be within the Jewish religion that is still looking for their Messiah to come.

I'll list these key points that must be addressed when examining the resurrection.

1. Miracles
2. Prophecy
3. Historical events
4. The historicity of a man named Jesus Christ who was associated with the Biblical accounts
5. The theories that surround an empty tomb (
6. Why was the tomb guarded and sealed by 30+ Roman soldiers?
7. Eyewitness accounts
8. Could all of the Apostles and disciples been hallucinating?
9. Why would almost all of the original followers die horrible deaths for no money, no fame, and no power?
10. Secular accounts
11. The monumental shift designated by BC to AD that created such an impact, Rome would be converted.
12. Under the pressure of being killed, all they had to do was deny Jesus and pay tribute to the Roman gods and the Christians would live. Why not deny Jesus?
13. Archaeologists and historians (many being secular as well) use the Bible in the Middle East to help identify places, objects, names, etc. Why, if the book is merely filled with fables?
14. The empty tomb was first recorded to have been discovered by women (in a male-centric culture why would the disciples make that up)?
15. Why preach in the same town where Jesus was crucified that He had been risen? It would have been very easy to fact-check.
16. According to early Jewish sources like the Toledoth Jesu, they could not find the body.
17. The radical transformation of Paul.
18. The radical courage of the disciples who recorded themselves fleeing in fear as Jesus was crucified. (typically something false would not include embarrassing unmasculine topics for that culture)
19. The tomb wasn't just any tomb or mass grave of bodies. The tomb was owned by a named
Arimathea, named Joseph, a rich Jewish man part of the Sanhedrin. So the tomb could have easily been located.
20. Early creeds testify that indeed the first Christians believed what they saw or heard.

More points could be addressed and many scholarly sources have written on the topic. But to discredit the resurrection, you are then challenged to find naturalistic explanations for this historical event.

As one who has already been down this road, I was left with the only plausible outcome. Jesus Christ the foundation of Christianity truly did rise from the dead and secured His place as the Messiah to the Jews and Savior to the Gentiles. Jesus boldly claimed to be the only way to salvation (John 16:6, Acts 4:12) making all other belief systems or worldviews false.

The resurrection proves all other religions and beliefs to be false. It provides only a black or white image, there is no grey. He didn't give us that option. So if Heaven and Hell exist, then the only logical response is to truly wrestle with this topic because not only is your soul impacted but so are those around you.

Amen! Please post this on the Apologetics thread, too, because it is so appropriate there--or may I do so?

 

[GWH]

Your post made me think of a question that I often ask myself. In fact, it is directly related to one of the questions that you asked here yourself. Before I ask my question to everyone else here, I want to sincerely say two things.

1. I truly do not want to lead your thread in a direction other than the direction which you desire it to go.
2. I truly do not want anybody to answer my question on this thread, but rather to simply ponder it privately before the Lord.

My question is related to what you said here.

Of course, the answer to that question is that they all truly believed in Christ's resurrection from the dead and the hope that they all had of being similarly resurrected one day.

My question is this:

How many of us, the professing believers on this forum, truly believe in Christ's resurrection from the dead and our own hopes of being similarly resurrected one day? Do we believe to the point that we would potentially face death for the gospel of Christ? If not, then do we truly believe?

Personally, I have been in situations, for the gospel's sake, where my physical life was in jeopardy, and, by the grace of God, I did not shrink back.

However, and this is a strange but true however, there have also been a handful of times when, while in prayer before the Lord, I have sensed in my spirit that God was leading me to a deeper walk with him which might literally cost me my life, and I have sadly shrunk back from that deeper walk. In fact, and in total honesty, that is how I wound up on this forum just a couple of months ago. In other words, as I said to someone when I first came here, I feel a bit like Jonah who ran from the Lord's calling, and I have recently begun to press back closer to God in prayer...come what may.

I don't believe that only the original followers of Christ should have been willing to face death for Christ's and the gospel's sake, and I think that we should all seriously ponder how much we truly believe in Christ's resurrection from the dead.

I am sorry, in a sense, for my interruption here, but this truly is something that I think about often.

What you posted is worth pondering. I hope that I would be willing to suffer like Paul (2CR 6:4-10), and pray that I would not be like Peter before Christ's resurrection (JN 18:15-27).