Understanding God’s election
- Thread starter dougcho
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Guys, that's just too much context for FWers to accept. Besides, in their world it makes perfectly good sense for God to be longsuffering towards his elect while simultaneously not wanting any of the non-elect to perish. So...we can only infer from v.9 that God is not very patient with the non-elect who supposedly He doesn't want to perish. They cannot see the discordance their interpretation brings to the passage. And they cannot because they also ignore the larger context of 2Peter. Eisegesis is their game, not exegesis or applying sound hermeneutical principles to passages.
-
1
- Show all
All grace in God's drawing is effectual.
Effectual grace is the potters wheel.
Some will bend to being shaped as God desires.
Others will lump up, and refuse to yield to a desirable shape..
For it is God will that we each decide on how He is to judge us.
God is not going to allow anyone to remain neutral on the Potters wheel.
Its effectual in the sense of extracting a choice that we each must make.
No one will be left undecided about their contact with the invisible essense of God.
Everyone will either love, or hate, their initial contact with the essence of God in His drawing them.
They are not conscious that it is God making contact with them.
They simple decide how they respond, or react, when contact was made.
If someone remains positive God will begin to reveal more and more about His nature.
Over the finish line?
Christ is then presented.
.......
Effectual grace is the potters wheel.
Some will bend to being shaped as God desires.
Others will lump up, and refuse to yield to a desirable shape..
For it is God will that we each decide on how He is to judge us.
God is not going to allow anyone to remain neutral on the Potters wheel.
Its effectual in the sense of extracting a choice that we each must make.
No one will be left undecided about their contact with the invisible essense of God.
Everyone will either love, or hate, their initial contact with the essence of God in His drawing them.
They are not conscious that it is God making contact with them.
They simple decide how they respond, or react, when contact was made.
If someone remains positive God will begin to reveal more and more about His nature.
Over the finish line?
Christ is then presented.
.......
-
1
- Show all
They want to be the elect, the elite that replaces the Jews in the promises of God. The want the Jews to have all the curses and the elect elite to have all the blessing. But Replacement Theology is heresy. The Jews were chosen to spread the Gospel so God turned to the Gentiles. He grafted them in and told them not to boast of their station because God could cut them down as fast as He had the chosen Jews. The Jews were blinded because of their unbelief. But they will recognize their Messiah and repent. And God will keep His promise and restore them.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
He is drawing all men onto Himself...
Those who are positive to God's drawing, are at some point that God determines, presented the physical manifestation of the Invisible One. Jesus Christ. Once shown the physical manifestation that completely manifests the essence of the one who had been drawing him? He is then ripe for the harvest.
Those who are positive to God's drawing, are at some point that God determines, presented the physical manifestation of the Invisible One. Jesus Christ. Once shown the physical manifestation that completely manifests the essence of the one who had been drawing him? He is then ripe for the harvest.
-
1
- Show all
I'm not so sure about that, Rogerg. "Spiritual Israel" doesn't seem to fit the context of Rom 9-11. Here's why I say this: Paul in 9:6-8 defines who the true Israel is. It isn't the children (descendants) of Abraham according to the flesh; but rather it's the "children of promise". Paul is clearly making a sharp distinction between two groups of Jews. The real Jew in God's eyes are the "children of promise" according to election! And Paul proves this by citing five historical examples of God's election. Issac and Jacob were God's chosen ones, whereas Ishmael and Esau were not. And, of course, Pharaoh was also elected unto reprobation by God, as were Ishmael and Esau.
Having said that, doesn't negate the fact Gentile believers are also spiritual children of Abraham according to what Paul wrote earlier in Romans 4, etc. But Paul's focus in Rom 9-11 is mostly on the Jews. He's explaining to his audience (believing Gentiles) how and why God expanded his redemptive plan to now include God's elect throughout the world. And it's important for the spiritual safety of his original audience that they understand what role national Israel played in the past, in the present and how God's plan will play out to the end of the age, and what role the Gentile believers will play and what their attitude toward Jews should be. This is why he makes such a huge point of explaining how God's word and his plan did not fail and he has not rejected his people either (9:6; 11:1). Even though things currently look dismal and perhaps even hopeless for national Israel (since they rejected their Messiah and are persecuting God's people), God still has his Jewish remnant that he was saving during Paul's day, has been saving all these centuries and will continue to save to the last day -- this remnant being the "children of promise" -- the true Israel. Therefore, all [true] Israel will be saved come the end of the age. It can't be national Israel since the vast majority of Jews since the first century have rejected and still reject their Messiah. So these who have been rejecting Jesus all these centuries cannot comprise all [true] Israel. The true Israel (true Jews) can only be the "children of promise" remnant. And I think Paul reinforces this idea again in 11:1-2. "God did not reject his people whom He foreknew." And we we must remember: God has been saving a Jewish remnant for nearly 2,000 years now. This is why cannot be referring to national Israel. God has not been saving every single Jew born since the first century. He's only been saving those whom he foreknew in eternity past. But nonetheless..."all" (again used in the limited sense) Israel will be saved.
Anyhow, this is how I understand "all Israel will be saved". And I stand to be corrected if you see any holes in what I have just stated.
Having said that, doesn't negate the fact Gentile believers are also spiritual children of Abraham according to what Paul wrote earlier in Romans 4, etc. But Paul's focus in Rom 9-11 is mostly on the Jews. He's explaining to his audience (believing Gentiles) how and why God expanded his redemptive plan to now include God's elect throughout the world. And it's important for the spiritual safety of his original audience that they understand what role national Israel played in the past, in the present and how God's plan will play out to the end of the age, and what role the Gentile believers will play and what their attitude toward Jews should be. This is why he makes such a huge point of explaining how God's word and his plan did not fail and he has not rejected his people either (9:6; 11:1). Even though things currently look dismal and perhaps even hopeless for national Israel (since they rejected their Messiah and are persecuting God's people), God still has his Jewish remnant that he was saving during Paul's day, has been saving all these centuries and will continue to save to the last day -- this remnant being the "children of promise" -- the true Israel. Therefore, all [true] Israel will be saved come the end of the age. It can't be national Israel since the vast majority of Jews since the first century have rejected and still reject their Messiah. So these who have been rejecting Jesus all these centuries cannot comprise all [true] Israel. The true Israel (true Jews) can only be the "children of promise" remnant. And I think Paul reinforces this idea again in 11:1-2. "God did not reject his people whom He foreknew." And we we must remember: God has been saving a Jewish remnant for nearly 2,000 years now. This is why cannot be referring to national Israel. God has not been saving every single Jew born since the first century. He's only been saving those whom he foreknew in eternity past. But nonetheless..."all" (again used in the limited sense) Israel will be saved.
Anyhow, this is how I understand "all Israel will be saved". And I stand to be corrected if you see any holes in what I have just stated.
You'd have a very hard time proving that by the terms of the unilateral New Covenant. So, please provide biblical evidence for your stupendous claim.
Also, God's grace cannot be effectual in two diametrically opposing ways. If he's effectual when sinners repent and believe, then he cannot be effectual with unrepentant sinners. Your saying that God is 100% successful in his drawing regardless of the outcome due to you hypothesis I highlighted. This syllogistic reasoning flies in the face of what Jesus taught about how a house divided against itself cannot stand! It's destined to fall (Mk 3:25-26)!
Also, God's grace cannot be effectual in two diametrically opposing ways. If he's effectual when sinners repent and believe, then he cannot be effectual with unrepentant sinners. Your saying that God is 100% successful in his drawing regardless of the outcome due to you hypothesis I highlighted. This syllogistic reasoning flies in the face of what Jesus taught about how a house divided against itself cannot stand! It's destined to fall (Mk 3:25-26)!
