Understanding God’s election

[Cameron143]

Well, I don't see any reason to think being baptized and being sealed by the HS are not the same event.

Cool.

 

[Magenta]

Actually, it's a 5-topic pony. Your will is in bondage along with all your other faculties. So, you do have that right.

But now you mock God because he's not omnipotent? Does he perform black magic like Pharaoh's court magicians did?

And, yes, God can do as He pleases. The Potter has that right over his clay pots. It is his right to fix many that are broken, and his right to choose not fix and to discard the rest of the broken pots. That's exactly what happened at the Bronze Serpent incident. All the Jews were "broken", so he did away with the first group, while allowing the 2nd to live so that they could look to the raised serpent and stay alive after they were bitten.

So, explain to me, sir, how exactly does this make God unfair or unjust?

Some of these nay-sayers just seem to make it up as they go along...
perhaps they should be on a stage with a mic. somewhere.
They have scripted bits and they do ad lib. Very talented!

 

[cv5]

Some of these nay-sayers just seem to make it up as they go along...
perhaps they should be on a stage with a mic. somewhere.
They have scripted bits and they do ad lib. Very talented!

Well, the free-willers do not believe that God raped Mary.
So at least they have that going for them.

 

[fredoheaven]

And just means in addition to. I ran and I fell. Running and falling are 2 separate things.

Apples to oranges. We are of course discussing interrelated words which is thw work of thev Holy Spirit and sonthing lacks in your comparison. Here is better:
I ran and fell to the ground. So that running inherently implies movement in the ground and the fact when you fell is still in the ground.

 

[Inquisitor]

Count yourself blessed. If it were anything more you'd likely run yourself off a cliff out of your frustration.

What I do not understand is how you can reconcile Calvinism, with verses such as the one below.

Romans 11:17
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and
became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree.

The Gentiles were grafted into the cultivated olive tree but that was after Israel was grafted out.

How can any Gentile be chosen from eternity past when we, were not grafted in until 2000 years ago?

Ephesians 2:12
Remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel,
and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Once again Rufus, how can a Gentile be chosen from eternity past?

 

[Inquisitor]

The natural man is blinded by the god of this world. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The natural man is a lover of darkness. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The natural man is a slave to sin. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
Devoid of faith, the natural man's righteous acts are like filthy rags. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The natural man is captive to the will of the devil. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The natural man is hostile in his mind toward God. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The natural man suppresses the truth in unrighteousness. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The natural man cannot receive the spiritual things of God. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The natural man cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The natural man does not seek after God. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The natural man cannot come to God on his own. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The natural man hears the gospel as foolishness. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The natural man is helpless and ungodly. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The natural man is by nature a child of wrath. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The natural man cannot submit to God's law. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The natural man is dead in his sins. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The natural man is in need of a spiritual rebirth. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The natural man requires heart circumcision so he may love God. <= I wonder how many here deny that.

The Bible teaches that we sin because we are sinners. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The Bible teaches that a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The Bible teaches that all (as natural men) are under the control of the evil one. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The Bible teaches that we need to be rescued. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The Bible teaches that man’s heart is deceitful and desperately wicked. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The Bible teaches that man is born dead in transgression and sin. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The Bible teaches that the natural man is held captive by a love for sin. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The Bible teaches that the natural man will not seek God. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The Bible teaches that the natural man loves the darkness. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The Bible teaches that the natural man does not understand the things of God. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The Bible teaches that the natural man suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The Bible teaches that the natural man continues to willfully live in sin. <= I wonder how many here deny that.
The Bible teaches that the natural man's sinful lifestyle seems right to men. <= I wonder how many here deny that.


Well, Paul identified himself as an apostle of Christ by God's will. He certainly did not take credit for the work God had done in him. And it is the will of God that people believe. Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one He has sent.” It was God's work in my life that engendered faith and belief in me. Left to my own devices I would have remained dead to Him and looking for something else...

Illustrates that the gospel of Jesus Christ has limitless power to overcome the darkness!

 

[Cameron143]

Apples to oranges. We are of course discussing interrelated words which is thw work of thev Holy Spirit and sonthing lacks in your comparison. Here is better:
I ran and fell to the ground. So that running inherently implies movement in the ground and the fact when you fell is still in the ground.

Okay. Thanks for the discussion.
Grace and peace.

 

[Cameron143]

Illustrates that the gospel of Jesus Christ has limitless power to overcome the darkness!

What is the power of the gospel?

 

[Genez]

So Jesus was teaching cannibalism, was he? You take the eating and drinking literally, as any good die-hard Dispen would be disposed to doing?

That has nothing to do with tenses, as you asked about.

You just make stuff up, and get caught....
Then fake your way out if you can.

 

[Genez]

Somebody tell poor raving @Rufus that BELIEF always precedes FAITH.

https://christianchat.com/threads/understanding-god’s-election.216907/post-5435910

And that FAITH is an aspect of the utterly imperturbable failsafe WARRANTY provided for in the New Covenant.

Poor Calvinites. Their gimmicks have failed, their skullduggery exposed, and all that remains is apoplectic ranting.

Faith is simply having the correct thinking to be able to synchronize with God in God working in your life.

 

[Genez]

Seems every verse is used for "system" purposes.

They are caught in a trap designed to trap others.
We are the body of Christ, and they think like a virus.

 

[Cranberry]

Believing in Jesus is God's will and that is not determinism.

The creation was designed with the ability to believe.

Scientists believe that measuring, observing, experimenting, allows them to understand the universe.

Politicians believe that their political system is worth protecting.

Theologians believe they can understand God's interaction with man.

There are probably billions of people that believe in a God.

There are a lot less than billions that believe in Jesus.

Anyone can believe in Jesus and many are raised in Christian families and believe from a very young age.

Believing is not self determinism or a work.

Believing many things is a daily event for everyone and it's how we are designed.

Well said.

Especially that part about believing is not self determinism.
That's true. As the Scriptures tell us,it is God's determinism.

Scientists don't believe. They theorize.

 

[Cranberry]

It really does not misrepresent scriptures, Greek is a gendered language.

The question becomes what does one do with something that contradicts what they have been taught?

That's on you.

Jesus didn't teach in Greek. And the effort to revoke God's Sovereign word and Dominion is shame filled. Stop that!



Kehillah in Ephesus 2:8-9
Orthodox Jewish Bible
(Ephesians 2)
For by unmerited Chen v’Chesed Hashem you have been delivered from Hashem’s Mishpat (Judgment) and granted a share in the Geulah (Redemption), through emunah; and this is not [an einfal (intuitive idea)] of yourselves, it is a matnat Hashem (gift of G-d);
9 Not the result [of the zchus (merit)] of doing ma’asim (works) [Ac 15:1; Ga 5:3 4], so that before Hashem no man should be a ravrevan (boaster, braggart). [DEVARIM 9:5]

Read full chapter



Ephesians 2:8-9

Mounce Reverse Interlinear New Testament

8 For gar by ho grace charis you have been eimi saved sōzō through dia faith pistis, and kai this houtos is not ou of ek yourselves hymeis, it is the ho gift dōron of God theos; 9 it is not ou of ek works ergon, so that hina no mē one tis may boast kauchaomai.

 

[Cranberry]

That's on you.

Jesus didn't teach in Greek. And the effort to revoke God's Sovereign word and Dominion is shame filled. Stop that!



Kehillah in Ephesus 2:8-9
Orthodox Jewish Bible
(Ephesians 2)
For by unmerited Chen v’Chesed Hashem you have been delivered from Hashem’s Mishpat (Judgment) and granted a share in the Geulah (Redemption), through emunah; and this is not [an einfal (intuitive idea)] of yourselves, it is a matnat Hashem (gift of G-d);
9 Not the result [of the zchus (merit)] of doing ma’asim (works) [Ac 15:1; Ga 5:3 4], so that before Hashem no man should be a ravrevan (boaster, braggart). [DEVARIM 9:5]

Read full chapter



Ephesians 2:8-9

Mounce Reverse Interlinear New Testament

8 For gar by ho grace charis you have been eimi saved sōzō through dia faith pistis, and kai this houtos is not ou of ek yourselves hymeis, it is the ho gift dōron of God theos; 9 it is not ou of ek works ergon, so that hina no mē one tis may boast kauchaomai.

Faith wasn't also of God,as he said in Eohesians. And why?

“There is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God” (Romans 3:11)

Something others here might notice. Those who repeatedly boast they save themselves by their choice.

A direct and repeated contradiction of Scripture in just 1 Corinthians 2.

 

[Genez]

Well said.

Especially that part about believing is not self determinism.
That's true. As the Scriptures tell us,it is God's determinism.

Scientists don't believe. They theorize.

They can theorize.
Yet, they also believe gravity exists and can be demonstrated.

 

[Genez]

There are Jehovah Witnesses who are just as closed-minded and convinced as what we see here with the hyper Calvinists.

And, it also remains true...

There will be people whom the Holy Spirit will lead out of such-soul traps to finding their way out.

The Truth will make them free.

 

[Genez]

“There is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God” (Romans 3:11)

How does one seek for what one can not see, nor hear?

No man has ever seen God at any time; the only unique Son, or the only begotten God, ​

Who is in the bosom [in the intimate presence] of the Father, He has declared Him ​

[He has revealed Him and brought Him out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him ​

and He has made Him known]. John 1:18​

The Son makes God seeable and hearable.
Man can now seek God because of the Son.

Jesus came to seek the lost. Men responded.

 

[Inquisitor]

What is the power of the gospel?

The same limitless power of His grace and ability to reconcile people to Himself, and unite them
into one body, the church.

Ephesians 1:19-21
And what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance
with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him
from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority
and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,
to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

The gospel is the full power of God piercing the darkness with the truth.

"For God, who said, 'Let light shine out of darkness,' has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge
of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

The key phrase in Ephesians is, "in Him", everything predestined is always "in Him".

1 Corinthians 4:20
For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power.

 

[Inquisitor]

Faith wasn't also of God,as he said in Eohesians. And why?

“There is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God” (Romans 3:11)

Something others here might notice. Those who repeatedly boast they save themselves by their choice.

A direct and repeated contradiction of Scripture in just 1 Corinthians 2.

No one saves themselves.

Christ is the light that shone in the darkness.

You can only be saved IN HIM.

The will of God was that you believe in Jesus.

 

[brightfame52]

Faith is simply having the correct thinking to be able to synchronize with God in God working in your life.

God gives Faith to His Elect for the acknowledging of the Truth of the Gospel, which acknowledging is Godliness Titus 1:1

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

God given Faith does give correct thinking to the Elect in regards to the Truth of the Gospel !