Understanding God’s election

[HeIsHere]

In my Bible, verses 1-5 come before verses 8-9. This means the Apostle was laying the groundwork in the earlier verses. He begins by introducing the term quickened and the phrase dead in trespasses and sins.
Quickened is easy. That simply means gives life to. Dead in trespasses and sins is what he explains for the next 2 verses. Pretty much the description is dead, being dominated, and doomed. But presto, God intervenes and viola...He takes dead people and makes them alive.
Dead people are unbelievers. That means they don't as yet have faith. God even, with us in this estate, makes us alive together with Christ. By the time we come to verse 8, God is simply giving more details about how He makes us alive.
So, still have God making people alive when they were still unbelievers.

Does not harmonize with the rest of scripture and that is not what Paul is stating.

He knows that faith precedes quickening and he is not making a statement about the process of salvation.

 

[HeIsHere]

I have no problem with faith as a act of volition. How about being quickened? Is that an act of volition? Did we, being dead in trespasses and sins, make ourselves alive together with Christ?

Or was this done for us? Making us partakers of the divine nature? And thus alive to God?

Which came first? Does verse 5 come before verse 8?

Faith always precedes verse 8 makes that very clear!
Plus we have entire bible that clearly teaches that faith precedes new life.
We also know that being dead does not mean inability.

The burden of proof is on you to produce just one clear biblical example of the term “DEAD” meaning “the moral incapacity to respond willingly to God from birth.”
Still waiting, what you are doing is presuming the meaning to fit your doctrine of regeneration preceding faith, a doctrine where faith really has no function.

Verse 8 makes it plain that "faith" has a very clear function in the process of salvation.

 

[keepingthingsreal]

In my Bible, verses 1-5 come before verses 8-9. This means the Apostle was laying the groundwork in the earlier verses. He begins by introducing the term quickened and the phrase dead in trespasses and sins.
Quickened is easy. That simply means gives life to. Dead in trespasses and sins is what he explains for the next 2 verses. Pretty much the description is dead, being dominated, and doomed. But presto, God intervenes and viola...He takes dead people and makes them alive.
Dead people are unbelievers. That means they don't as yet have faith. God even, with us in this estate, makes us alive together with Christ. By the time we come to verse 8, God is simply giving more details about how He makes us alive.
So, still have God making people alive when they were still unbelievers.

...and in everybody's Bible, chapter 1 precedes chapter 2.

Eph 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

AFTER they heard the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation, they trusted and believed, and AFTER that they were sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Take your false plan of salvation elsewhere. I don't know, maybe to an altar somewhere where you fall on your knees and genuinely renounce it before the actual God of the Bible.

 

[cv5]

Ephesians 2:5 Paul made clarification, how one get saved " by grace ye are save' hence referring also to eph. 2:8 which is 'through faith'. So the verse is not saying regeneration before faith, rather faith to be saved.

Hey @Cameron143 @Magenta @Rufus @brightfame52 how's it going?

I hate to break the news, but it is obvious that Paul is speaking about the ETERNAL STATE here (and other places as well BTW).
Eternal death POST GWT JUDGEMENT YET FUTURE = "dead in sins".
Eternal life POST RESURRECTION/POST RAPTURE YET FUTURE = "sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:"

[Eph 2:5 KJV]
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

[Eph 2:6 KJV]
And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

*************************************************************************

Which of course debunks the Calvinite hoaxing as regards their "dead in sins" total inability theory.
Any other questions?

 

[HeIsHere]

Hey @Cameron143 @Magenta @Rufus how's it going?

I hate to break the news, but it is obvious that Paul is speaking about the ETERNAL STATE here (and other places as well BTW).
Eternal death POST GWT JUDGEMENT YET FUTURE = "dead in sins".
Eternal life POST RESURRECTION/POST RAPTURE YET FUTURE = "sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:"

[Eph 2:5 KJV]
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

[Eph 2:6 KJV]
And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

*************************************************************************

Which of course debunks the Calvinite hoaxing as regards their "dead in sins" total inability theory.
Any other questions?

Yes there is also that part to it as well.

Let's see how long til another cherry picked proof text is brought up? 🕰️👀

 

[Cameron143]

Does not harmonize with the rest of scripture and that is not what Paul is stating.

He knows that faith precedes quickening and he is not making a statement about the process of salvation.

Without faith it is impossible to please God. But you have unsaved people operating by faith in the flesh and trusting God. Yet it is impossible to please God in the flesh. Do you not see the irony?

And Ephesians 2 is all about the process of salvation. The whole first chapter is a recitation of the activity of God in salvation:
Verse 3...who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings...
Verse 4...He hath chosen us in Him..
Verse 5...have predestinated us unto adoption...
Verse 8...He hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence...
Verse 9...having made known to us the mystery of His will...

Salvation is about what God does. That's why it's not of works. And it fits perfectly with the whole of scripture, which of course, is all about what Christ has done.

 

[cv5]

...and in everybody's Bible, chapter 1 precedes chapter 2.

Eph 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

AFTER they heard the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation, they trusted and believed, and AFTER that they were sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Take your false plan of salvation elsewhere. I don't know, maybe to an altar somewhere where you fall on your knees and genuinely renounce it before the actual God of the Bible.

A divorce lawyer would conclude that @Cameron143 @Magenta @Rufus @brightfame52 and their crew are.....
"CONTRARY".

I mean, they are pretty much ossified, intractable, incorrigible, untrainable, intransigent.
Biblically, "hardness of heart" comes to mind. A term indicating unbelief DESPITE overwhelming evidence.

 

[cv5]

Yes there is also that part to it as well.

Let's see how long til another cherry picked proof text is brought up? 🕰️👀

[1Co 15:21 KJV]
For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.

[1Co 15:22 KJV]
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

How this concatenates with Eph 2:5-6 is obvious even to a knuckle dragging troglodyte like me.

 

[Magenta]

The burden of proof is on you to produce just one clear biblical example of the term

The burden of proof is on you to produce just one clear Biblical example of the term free will
in relation to salvation. Do not give verses saying choose. Choosing does not imply freedom.

And of course I mean the "free will" of the natural man.

Not him who has been freed from doing the will of the devil.

 

[Cameron143]

Faith always precedes verse 8 makes that very clear!
Plus we have entire bible that clearly teaches that faith precedes new life.
We also know that being dead does not mean inability.

The burden of proof is on you to produce just one clear biblical example of the term “DEAD” meaning “the moral incapacity to respond willingly to God from birth.”
Still waiting, what you are doing is presuming the meaning to fit your doctrine of regeneration preceding faith, a doctrine where faith really has no function.

Verse 8 makes it plain that "faith" has a very clear function in the process of salvation.

Again, if you have faith preceding regeneration, you have people operating in the flesh pleasing God. Is that possible according to scripture?

 

[brightfame52]

@keepingthingsreal

AFTER

they heard the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation, they trusted and believed, and AFTER that they were sealed with the Holy Spirit.

They couldnt hear spiritually without first being born of God, so the verse proves regeneration before faith. Jesus says its them who are of God [saved] that hear Gods words Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

And dont forget Eph 1:13 is speaking only about the elect, read the connection back up in Eph 1:4

So its only given to the elect to spiritually hear the Gospel of their salvation !

 

[cv5]

Without faith it is impossible to please God. But you have unsaved people operating by faith in the flesh and trusting God. Yet it is impossible to please God in the flesh. Do you not see the irony?

False dichotomy man. Just another synthetic construct of your own imagination.
And @Pilgrimshope has already addressed and thoroughly debunked this Calvinite hoax.

 

[Cameron143]

...and in everybody's Bible, chapter 1 precedes chapter 2.

Eph 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

AFTER they heard the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation, they trusted and believed, and AFTER that they were sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Take your false plan of salvation elsewhere. I don't know, maybe to an altar somewhere where you fall on your knees and genuinely renounce it before the actual God of the Bible.

Being sealed with the Spirit is not the indwelling of the Spirit. A seal goes on the outside of a letter and authenticates what is inside. Likewise, the falling of the Holy Spirit authenticated Jesus at His baptism, the Apostles the day of Pentecost, and other examples in the book of Acts.
The indwelling of the Spirit is the quickening spoken of in Ephesians 2:5. It is internal and results in faith.

 

[Cameron143]

Hey @Cameron143 @Magenta @Rufus @brightfame52 how's it going?

I hate to break the news, but it is obvious that Paul is speaking about the ETERNAL STATE here (and other places as well BTW).
Eternal death POST GWT JUDGEMENT YET FUTURE = "dead in sins".
Eternal life POST RESURRECTION/POST RAPTURE YET FUTURE = "sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:"

[Eph 2:5 KJV]
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

[Eph 2:6 KJV]
And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

*************************************************************************

Which of course debunks the Calvinite hoaxing as regards their "dead in sins" total inability theory.
Any other questions?

So we are dead in trespasses and sins and aren't saved until we die?

 

[cv5]

The burden of proof is on you to produce just one clear Biblical example of the term free will
in relation to salvation. Do not give verses saying choose. Choosing does not imply freedom.

And of course I mean the "free will" of the natural man.

Not him who has been freed from doing the will of the devil.

The term free will? Oh I can do better than that. I can demonstrate the ACTS of free will.
Frankly, the Biblical content is so overwhelming that a mere message board could not contain the tiniest fraction.

[Gen 2:16 KJV]
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

[Ezr 7:15 KJV]
And to carry the silver and gold, which the king and his counsellors have freely offered unto the God of Israel, whose habitation [is] in Jerusalem,

[Psa 54:6 KJV]
I will freely sacrifice unto thee: I will praise thy name, O LORD; for [it is] good.

[Mat 10:8 KJV]
Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

[1Co 2:12 KJV]
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

[Rev 21:6 KJV]
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

[Rev 22:17 KJV]
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
*************************************************************************************************
[Luk 13:34 KJV]
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen [doth gather] her brood under [her] wings, and ye would not!

[Gen 24:5 KJV]
And the servant said unto him, Peradventure the woman will not be willing to follow me unto this land: must I needs bring thy son again unto the land from whence thou camest?

[Gen 24:8 KJV]
And if the woman will not be willing to follow thee, then thou shalt be clear from this my oath: only bring not my son thither again.

[Exo 35:5 KJV]
Take ye from among you an offering unto the LORD: whosoever [is] of a willing heart, let him bring it, an offering of the LORD; gold, and silver, and brass,

[Exo 35:29 KJV]
The children of Israel brought a willing offering unto the LORD, every man and woman, whose heart made them willing to bring for all manner of work, which the LORD had commanded to be made by the hand of Moses.

[1Ch 28:9 KJV]
And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

[1Ch 29:5 KJV]
The gold for [things] of gold, and the silver for [things] of silver, and for all manner of work [to be made] by the hands of artificers. And who [then] is willing to consecrate his service this day unto the LORD?

[Isa 1:19 KJV]
If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

[Mat 1:19 KJV]
Then Joseph her husband, being a just [man], and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.

[Luk 10:29 KJV]
But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

[Jhn 5:35 KJV]
He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.

*******************************************************************

Why oh why do the Calvinites revel in such ignorance and absurdity?
Maybe they are not WILLING to SEEK the truth of the matter?

 

[cv5]

So we are dead in trespasses and sins and aren't saved until we die?

Yes @Cameron143 , these near-east rhetorical devices are unfathomable to the Greek-ish pseudo-intellectual Calvinites, this much is true.

 

[Cameron143]

Yes @Cameron143 , these near-east rhetorical devices are unfathomable to the Greek-ish pseudo-intellectual Calvinites, this much is true.

Wow. @HeIsHere ?

 

[Mem]

Take God at His word friend ! Discard your human logic in this matter

However lovely a person might be, I cannot take bad advice to discard my God given logic from them. I'm too acquainted with well-intentioned congeniality lying to me, whether knowingly or otherwise.

 

[Mem]

I meant...as many as received Him...

Yes. I foreknew you would be unreceptive.

 

[cv5]

The term free will? Oh I can do better than that. I can demonstrate the ACTS of free will.
Frankly, the Biblical content is so overwhelming that a mere message board could not contain the tiniest fraction.

[Gen 2:16 KJV]
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

[Ezr 7:15 KJV]
And to carry the silver and gold, which the king and his counsellors have freely offered unto the God of Israel, whose habitation [is] in Jerusalem,

[Psa 54:6 KJV]
I will freely sacrifice unto thee: I will praise thy name, O LORD; for [it is] good.

[Mat 10:8 KJV]
Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

[1Co 2:12 KJV]
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

[Rev 21:6 KJV]
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

[Rev 22:17 KJV]
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
*************************************************************************************************
[Luk 13:34 KJV]
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen [doth gather] her brood under [her] wings, and ye would not!

[Gen 24:5 KJV]
And the servant said unto him, Peradventure the woman will not be willing to follow me unto this land: must I needs bring thy son again unto the land from whence thou camest?

[Gen 24:8 KJV]
And if the woman will not be willing to follow thee, then thou shalt be clear from this my oath: only bring not my son thither again.

[Exo 35:5 KJV]
Take ye from among you an offering unto the LORD: whosoever [is] of a willing heart, let him bring it, an offering of the LORD; gold, and silver, and brass,

[Exo 35:29 KJV]
The children of Israel brought a willing offering unto the LORD, every man and woman, whose heart made them willing to bring for all manner of work, which the LORD had commanded to be made by the hand of Moses.

[1Ch 28:9 KJV]
And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

[1Ch 29:5 KJV]
The gold for [things] of gold, and the silver for [things] of silver, and for all manner of work [to be made] by the hands of artificers. And who [then] is willing to consecrate his service this day unto the LORD?

[Isa 1:19 KJV]
If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

[Mat 1:19 KJV]
Then Joseph her husband, being a just [man], and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.

[Luk 10:29 KJV]
But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

[Jhn 5:35 KJV]
He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.

*******************************************************************

Why oh why do the Calvinites revel in such ignorance and absurdity?
Maybe they are not WILLING to SEEK the truth of the matter?

BTW @Magenta , I could post 1000 more passages similarly.
And do you know what the Calvinites would do?
Waste 20 years desperately trying to figure out if the persons making these CHOICES were in the flesh or in the Spirit or saved or unsaved or regenerate or unregenerate or obedient or disobedient or whatever.

When it is OBVIOUS any such distinctions are IRRELEVANT.
Because it is also OBVIOUS that ALL ACTORS have FREE WILL and animate themselves accordingly.
Everybody. Including Jesus God and Satan.