Understanding God’s election

[Rufus]

Oh yes, how dare anyone reveal what lies at the heart of these "doctrines of grace."

How else to provide cover for what is truly that final picture of Dorian Gray by pretending that the original portrait is the truth, I mean

we have people like John Gill and R. C. Sproul who add layers and layers of intellectual babble and reams of explanations of high

sounding prose extolling this sovereign controlling "caricature" of god.

Rest assured many of us of read these writers and when one sees past all their sophisticated high level rherotic one wonders have they really understood God at all?

I praise God everyday of my life for giving me a spirit of humility, whereby I desire that he take full control of my life since my life is not my own but His. He bought me at a great price to Himself! But of course, the proud and arrogant and boastful would want nothing to do with that kind of God, would they!?

 

[HeIsHere]

Can you write that differently? I'm not sure I understand.

Specifically scripture states.. (albeit taken out of context so please refer to the full context)
"The mind of sinful man is death ...; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so".

Are we correct in then correctly deducing.....

God must first do an internal work to change the heart so a person can believe in the Gospel?

Is that the point Paul is making... no can believe unless God changes a person first?

 

[Rufus]

I would agree that for many the idea of the trinity may not jump off the pages at them. I believe but I can see why many do see it right away. On the other hand I think there are so many verses that are against the most bothersome or honestly most frightening belief of the Calvin/Reform dogma. The whole idea that God not only hates a group of people but will send them to hell through not fault of their own, to me is beyond illogical but more importantly, mocks the character and heart of God.

So God condemns people to hell who are not sinners? Do you have chapter and verse for that?

 

[Kroogz]

Did you actually expect me to go through the entire Bible explaining it all in a post? Really? That's absurd!
If you understood what it means that Christ is the Savior, then you should have realized the phrase is all-inclusive
of the gospel message since the gospel is about Him alone. I assumed you already knew that and kept it to basics- my mistake,
I overestimated you.

Excuse me, that is what you tell UNBELIEVERS. Your witness to them.

No life. No cross. No Love........It is a different Gospel.

Kroogz, what must I do to be saved?

The Lord Jesus Christ loved , lived, died and rose again for each and every person who has ever lived. He died for you personally. With YOU IN HIS MIND. And He simply asks you to trust in Him for your salvation. You can do this right now as we stand here or in the quiet of your own home. Whosoever, wherever can trust in Him.

 

[Rufus]

Rightly divided, the Word reveals that one believes in their heart, which is not possible in the stony heart of a person who is hostile in their mind to God ... plainly spoken, the Truth cannot take fruitful root in such a heart... even Paul acknowledged that he needed to be rescued because he was sold into sin and a slave to it ... and that it was Jesus Christ who rescued him, not his so-called free will. He freely acknowledged that his will was not free, and you would do well to do the same.

I wonder where Paul would be today if it weren't for his God-given on-the-road-to-Damascus salvation experience (in which we all have our own versions thereof) in which God found him and rescued him?

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

So God condemns people to hell who are not sinners? Do you have chapter and verse for that?

When did I say that?

 

[cv5]

Sure. Not every message is for the mature.

Oh I don't think maturity is any problem.
But pride? Big problem.
Intellectual pride among the "religious elite gatekeepers" seems to be what is being chided here in that day and age.

And how about in this day and age? Are we to call it Calvinite intellectual pride? Thats a very good fit nowadays don't you think?

[Luk 10:21 KJV]
In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

 

[rogerg]

God must first do an internal work to change the heart so a person can believe in the Gospel?

Is that the point Paul is making... no can believe unless God changes a person first?

Yes, it is:

[Heb 8:7, 9-12 KJV]
7 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. ...
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

[Col 3:10 KJV]
10 And have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

[Eph 4:23 KJV]
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

 

[HeIsHere]

I wonder where Paul would be today if it weren't for his God-given on-the-road-to-Damascus salvation experience (in which we all have our own versions thereof) in which God found him and rescued him?

Hmm so Paul knew he could have chosen otherwise, be disobedient, I thought that was the one choice all mankind is prohibited from making... choosing to be obedient and believe?

Acts 26
19 “So then, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the vision from heaven.

 

[cv5]

Hmm so Paul knew he could have chosen otherwise, be disobedient, I thought that was the one choice all mankind is prohibited from making... choosing to be obedient and believe?

Acts 26
19 “So then, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the vision from heaven.

Oh yes. That NECESSARY aspect of the interaction being a consequence of Paul's unfettered FREE WILL.

 

[HeIsHere]

[

Yes, it is:

[Heb 8:7, 9-12 KJV]
7 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. ...
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

[Col 3:10 KJV]
10 And have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

[Eph 4:23 KJV]
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

Is this about the ordo salutis ... I don't think so.

 

[rogerg]

Excuse me, that is what you tell UNBELIEVERS. Your witness to them.

No life. No cross. No Love........It is a different Gospel.

Kroogz, what must I do to be saved?

The Lord Jesus Christ loved , lived, died and rose again for each and every person who has ever lived. He died for you personally. With YOU IN HIS MIND. And He simply asks you to trust in Him for your salvation. You can do this right now as we stand here or in the quiet of your own home. Whosoever, wherever can trust in Him.

That's ridiculous! I'm not going to spend hours going through the tenets of salvation to answer your question in detail.
Christ as the Savior is the point of the gospel.
Don't bother me any further with these absurd posts.

 

[Aaron56]

Specifically scripture states.. (albeit taken out of context so please refer to the full context)
"The mind of sinful man is death ...; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so".

Are we correct in then correctly deducing.....

God must first do an internal work to change the heart so a person can believe in the Gospel?

Is that the point Paul is making... no can believe unless God changes a person first?

Thank you!

Stephen said this of the Jewish Council as they sat in judgement of him;

“You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you."

Paul wrote this to Timothy regarding corrupt me in the last days:

"Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith..."

What would have been their condition had they NOT resisted the truth and the Holy Spirit?

All men begin in a state called "lost". The only question is: will they resist the call of the Lord or permit it?

 

[rogerg]

[



Is this about the ordo salutis ... I don't think so.

I am not the author of those verses.

 

[cv5]

Thank you!

Stephen said this of the Jewish Council as they sat in judgement of him;

“You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you."

Paul wrote this to Timothy regarding corrupt me in the last days:

"Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith..."

What would have been their condition had they NOT resisted the truth and the Holy Spirit?

All men begin in a state called "lost". The only question is: will they resist the call of the Lord or permit it?

And the Scripture is filled to the brim with this same phenomenon. Vastly abundant in fact.

 

[Magenta]

I wonder where Paul would be today if it weren't for his God-given on-the-road-to-Damascus salvation experience (in which we all have our own versions thereof) in which God found him and rescued him?

Well according to one of the vey "vocal" people here in the free will camp, God is unfair because everyone else does not have the exact same experience that Paul did!

 

[Aaron56]

Oh I don't think maturity is any problem.
But pride? Big problem.
Intellectual pride among the "religious elite gatekeepers" seems to be what is being chided here in that day and age.

And how about in this day and age? Are we to call it Calvinite intellectual pride? Thats a very good fit nowadays don't you think?

[Luk 10:21 KJV]
In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

I have not read this entire thread so I'm not sure what you are talking about. I'm certainly not a Calvinist.

 

[Cameron143]

I have not read this entire thread so I'm not sure what you are talking about. I'm certainly not a Calvinist.

You are if they say you are.

 

[Rufus]

They don't possess it. Our faith is not what saves us; Christ's faith is what saves us. The saving faith is Christ's faith. That's what make Him the Savior. Our faith comes as a result of His salvation; it does not bring us salvation - it is result not cause. Before being born, we are chosen to be saved but becoming saved itself occurs at a point in time in our lives of God's choosing.

BINGO! You have nailed the essence of salvation AND all mankind's desperate need for for Christ. Christ only can save anyone due to his faithful life that he lived unto his Father, his faithful gospel ministry to the lost, his faithful obedience to the Father unto death on the Cross and his resurrection from the dead. So many today forget that Jesus is the Second Man! He is the Last Adam and is EVERYTHING that the first Adam wasn't! Christ accomplished everything, whereas the first Adam brought ruin to himself, to his progeny and indeed to the entire universe, since God must make all things new!

Jesus is given both both these titles for good reason. The title "Last Adam" tells us that no can come after Jesus to do what he ALONE could only do. And the title "Second Man" tells us that the Father never had anyone else in mind to save mankind after Adam sinned. Therefore, there is no one AFTER the first Adam, and there is no one AFTER the last Adam. Christ is ALL! Or stated differently:

Rom 11:36
36 For from him and through him and to him are ALL things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.
NIV

If only everyone here truly understood this most profound statement by Paul, we would not be having these kinds of discussions here that we're having.

 

[Magenta]

You are if they say you are.

So they would have others believe ... whether it is true or not.