Grace or Works - For It Cannot Be Both

[Magenta]

It's funny how such a statement(in red) could be so easily overlooked.

What do you think it means to "believe in vain"?

 

[GWH]

Why do most people today reject the Gospel of Grace, and are there risks in doing so?

Rejection of the Gospel of Grace leads to no other possibility than to that of works-based salvation. It is either of grace through faith, with it ALL being of Christ only and what He accomplished on the cross through His death, burial and resurrection on the third day according to scripture, or it is by Law and/or works and the various mixtures thereof. It cannot be both in some recipe of strange mixtures that a number of denominational religions teach, with the top leader of the largest of which is now embracing perverse sexuality.

What's worse is that the span of its endorsements will only continue to broaden with time and pressures from the world as Satan continues to guide its paths, along with the paths of all the others that corrupt the whole loaf with the variations in the leaven content they try to intermix with grace. This will only strengthen its member's beliefs in their own good works intermixed with sins that older and previous generations found repugnant and horribly corrupt...clearly defined as sin leading only to the pathway of everlasting entanglement to one's sins; each individual never able to atone for them in the everlasting flames.

Allegorization, however, is the chief weapon of choice to battle against the authority of Paul's apostleship, evidenced in the mystery directly revealed first and only to him by the Lord that remained hidden in God since the creation of the world.

The website "gotquestions.org" grapples with this phenomenon by stating, "The simple answer is that salvation by works seems right in the eyes of man. One of man’s basic desires is to be in control of his own destiny, and that includes his eternal destiny. Salvation by works appeals to man’s pride and his desire to be in control. Being saved by works appeals to that desire far more than the idea of being saved by faith alone."

That's a very general assessment of some elements involved in the causations behind that philosophy, but the article failed to consider the "supernatural" forces at work to keep that system of deadness flowing through the hearts and minds of the adherents to any one of the variants of that belief system.

One Jehovah's Witness once cried in front of us, revealing her not knowing if she was "good enough" to make it into Heaven as a member of what they believe will be the "ruling class" since she didn't want to be stuck on the earth with all the other mediocre populace of mankind who were allegedly also Jehovah's Witnesses who didn't knock on enough doors and sell enough Watchtower publications and give away enough handouts touting their false religion.

The emotional scars that works-based salvations inflict upon all its victims run deep, along with the strength bolstered by the pride of our flesh that fuels our desire to supplement the Blood of Christ as if it were insufficient to provide for us the totality of our salvation. Attempts at amalgamations (mixtures) of grace with works FOR salvation all give reason to examine more deeply the faith in that individual.

What about you? Upon reflection, do YOU think that your works could ever supplement the perfection in the Blood of Christ? How can any of us ever hope to improve upon perfection?

Thoughts?

MM

Re "Rejection of the Gospel of Grace leads to no other possibility than to that of works-based salvation.": Actually, the third possibility is that atheists don't believe either type of salvation is possible.

I might also point out another dichotomy: God is love/truthful or God is hateful/deceitful. He cannot be both.

 

[Edify]

What do you think it means to "believe in vain"?

James 2:14What use is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone says he has faith, but he has no works? Can [j]that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, [k]be warmed and be filled,” yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17In the same way, faith also, if it has no works, is [l]dead, being by itself.
I believe dead & useless are pretty close. A vain person is spiritually dead.

 

[Magenta]

James 2:14What use is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone says he has faith, but he has no works? Can [j]that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, [k]be warmed and be filled,” yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17In the same way, faith also, if it has no works, is [l]dead, being by itself.
I believe dead & useless are pretty close. A vain person is spiritually dead.

I have never seen that verse in Scripture about vain people being spiritually dead. I have however, right here on Christian Chat, met many who claim to be Christians whose vanity is forefront. Perhaps you have as well. Do you think that everyone who claims to have faith is an actual born again believer? Some think we have no way to tell, but that is not what Scripture says. A bit of an aside here is that not too long ago a person who identifies as a Christian thoroughly mocked people for saying they knew true believers, because her claim was that only God could know such a thing, then she subsequently turned around and told us she knew at least 50-100 people who had been true believers who departed the faith/apostatized. Of course such people absolutely hate it when their contradictions are pointed out to them. That seems a rather obvious form of vanity to me, as well. Though I would not cite it as a reason to think they weren't actually saved...

 

[Edify]

I have never seen that verse in Scripture about vain people being spiritually dead. I have however, right here on Christian Chat, met many who claim to be Christians whose vanity is forefront. Perhaps you have as well. Do you think that everyone who claims to have faith is an actual born again believer? Some think we have no way to tell, but that is not what Scripture says. A bit of an aside here is that not too long ago a person who identifies as a Christian thoroughly mocked people for saying they knew true believers, because her claim was that only God could know such a thing, then she subsequently turned around and told us she knew at least 50-100 people who had been true believers who departed the faith/apostatized. Of course such people absolutely hate it when their contradictions are pointed out to them. That seems a rather obvious form of vanity to me, as well. Though I would not cite it as a reason to think they weren't actually saved...

I wouldn't believe such a person. Jesus said it plainly: "You shall know them by their fruit."
Every one has faith. God has given every man the measure of faith, but no, not everyone is saved.
There's much to the old saying, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

 

[Magenta]

I wouldn't believe such a person. Jesus said it plainly: "You shall know them by their fruit."
Every one has faith. God has given every man the measure of faith, but no, not everyone is saved.
There's much to the old saying, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

Well, I surely do not believe people that speak out of both sides of their mouth. One guy here repeatedly
bragged to me that that was what he was doing. I am not sure what he was hoping to accomplish by being
such a snake in the grass; I plainly told him that his forked tongue was repulsive.

 

[Leastofall]

I agree

but we can't say we are saved by works.

Sadly many want to make works works of merit. not works of love..

Works of love please explain?

 

[Leastofall]

So, you therefore believe that the Blood of Christ was not sufficient? If not, then what are you saying if not that works-based salvation is what we are under today? It's one thing to say that good works flow outward from a genuine faith and saving grace, but quite another when coupling them together as a pre-requisite, that's not what Paul taught.

MM

And this is why I do not like to reply to such on going debates such as this.
Where in my one post did I say this?

 

[Musicmaster]

It's funny how such a statement(in red) could be so easily overlooked.

Not overlooked. It is indeed a part of the narrative where there is no requirement for works as salvational achievement.

Romans 11:1-6
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.

Replacement theology, one would think, would be cast aside by the various group-think hounds out there who follow that horrid system of belief without reading scripture for what it says, but the group-think, band wagon mentality prevails out there...

And so we continue:

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Those who fixate on the accusation that what I'm saying here is that this all negates works entirely, and that is not at all what is being conveyed by the scriptures nor myself. Good works are an integral, out-flowing part of a true faith, for the Lord seeks to use those who are His to accomplish good toward others. The issue, however, is that works do not at all supplement salvation, nor make it more real for the believers who by faith place their trust and adherence upon what they know the Lord accomplished in His death, burial and resurrection on the third day according to the scriptures.

I cannot count how many people I have encountered who believe people like Teresa are saved because of all their good works...

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

All the good works she did, without faith in the Gospel of Grace, she will be burning in Sheol without that faith:

Ephesians 2:5, 8
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by grace ye are saved; ...
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

So, if she and others could ever be saved by any measure of good works, they have achieved what scripture clearly points out as being impossible in God's economy, and those who think they can cheat God's economy in this, they are fooling only themselves by having ignored such statements as "...that not of yourselves..." I mean, what part of that are so many missing? Putting the cart before the horse makes for comic relief such as can be seen in a Little Rascals episode where they did that very thing, demonstrating the impracticality of it all.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

James 2:14What use is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone says he has faith, but he has no works? Can [j]that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, [k]be warmed and be filled,” yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17In the same way, faith also, if it has no works, is [l]dead, being by itself.
I believe dead & useless are pretty close. A vain person is spiritually dead.

Look at who James was addressing:

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

That was not written TO us today. That was a part of the Kingdom Gospel, which Paul never preached to the Gentiles and the Jews to whom he preached. Paul persecuted the Church because of those teachings, he wasn't converted over to that gospel, but was given the Gospel of Grace directly from the Lord, the mystery which was hidden in God from the creation of the world. Simply look at what Peter preached as the elements of the Kingdom Gospel in Acts 2, and then compare that with Paul's gospel, and the glaring differences become very clear.

That's not to say that Peter and James preached a false Gospel. What they preached was TO Israel. Because of Israel's continued failure to embrace Christ Jesus as Messiah after His ascension, Gentiles had no other place to turn in order to find salvation for their souls:

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

It cannot be made more clear for those out there who continue to doubt.

MM

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Simple question.

Are you labeling obedience to the commands of Christ as working toward salvation?

If your doing them to "merit" salvation, ie your doing them in order to get saved. maintain your salvation, or keep from losing it. Yes

If your doing them because you trust God. and out of gratitude. and expecting nothing in return. no.

Um no. this was no invented. its the pure word of God

You invented this issue,

Um no. this was no invented. its the pure word of God

no one thinks or pushes this "supplement the perfection".

Your wrong here too. but that is beside the point.

If you truly believe this, point out someone doing this. Not someone who you "indirectly" or "circuitously" suspect is doing this but is clearly doing this.

I am sure you can find many examples.

examples of people saying we must work to be saved.

yes we can find many examples

 

[Musicmaster]

And this is why I do not like to reply to such on going debates such as this.
Where in my one post did I say this?

I was not saying that you stated the the Blood of Christ was not sufficient. That's a natural conclusion to any measure of doubt cast upon faith alone for salvation.

Please allow me to clarify:

How can works ever have any effect upon salvation when Paul clearly pointed out "...and that not of yourselves...," in Ephesians 2:8? Do you believe that one must do good works in any measure to be saved? You don't have to debate this with me. I'm just asking, because when anyone deviates away from salvation being by faith alone, then the only other conclusion that could be formulated about such a belief is that works on our part must be a part of that equation, and scripture casts that into the winds of falsehood time after time after time. If not faith alone, then what else could possibly be added?

MM

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I'd appreciate a reference and explanation of clarification for that "persistence" of which you spoke.

Thanks

MM

you would like evidence that those who are saved do the works God created them to do?

I would say the best evidence is the faith hall of fame in Heb 11.. Think of Noah, who was saved before he started to build the ark, persisted for 100 years and did not waver..

thats alot of evidence

Or Abraham, who was saved in Gen 15 before he took a step. and although he committed some sins Gods records. persisted and in the end had such great faith he was willing to offer his son.

Or king david, Again another who persisted. and even though he had many sins himself. and the end of his life was not what he expected it to be because of those sins, was still called a friend of God.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

As I suspected. This issue is all in your head, living there rent free.

Please open your mind and heart and see that this is a baseless fear of your own making.

Ergophobia can be overcome.

Philippians 2:12–13
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your
own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

as I expected. You are one who believes you have to work to get saved.

Pauls words were to work out the salvation you have recieved. Not to work to get saved.

You can not merit salvation, The wage of sin is death, the GIFT of God is life

a gift can not be earned. And to be freed from the wage of sin. there is only one way. Death.

recieve the cross. or keep trying to earn your salvation by works. You will not like the end result.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

For my clarification please.

Are you staying you believe we are Saved by grace yet must persist in keeping that faith in order to stay Saved and have eternal life?

No,

I am saying those who are saved had faith in God for their eternity.

If you have faith in God for your eternity. you will most likely have faith in God in other areas of your life.

And when people look at you. the evidence is you persist in showing evidence of that faith.. which means you will not live as you did before in the world. where you persist in doing whatever you want (sin)

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I agree...completely. But there is another layer in this truth. If intrinsic good fruits come from a spiritually mature believer.........The Fruit inspector better be a mature believer and KNOW what true fruits are.

What we have today is a bunch of fruit inspectors that have no clue of what true fruit is.

I have seen in my 40 years that fruit inspectors are like the pharisee pumping his or her chest praising God they are not like the sinner.

While the sinner does not focus on his or her sins, but calls out for Gods mercy, knowing he is not worthy. and as paul did later in his life. realized the more he found out about God. the worse a sinner he understood he was.

Mature believers do not go around boasting. They go around confessing and warning..and teaching and edifying

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

"Through faith" is NOT a one & done.
IF it were so, there would be no falling away, no apostasy of the church in these last days like the Bible says it is.

By Grace is one and done

Grace can not be earned

It can only be received (through faith)

if I can not earn salvation (it is the gift of God) I can not un earn it.

Yes. people can have the truth in their hand, can chew on it. can appear to live in it. But never actually "receive the gift of Grace" and then before they have that chance, they fall from grace, having never partaken in it in a way that saves.

 

[Musicmaster]

you would like evidence that those who are saved do the works God created them to do?

No. That's not what I said. I stated that works do not and can not gain, supplement nor retain being saved. Salvation is a gift by grace through faith, not of works. Paul made that abundantly clear to us.

Does that help answer your question?

MM

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I think what is often overlooked in that matter is that while we know a Christian , those indwelt by Holy Spirit, can lose faith we should remember that God will never loose faith in us.

I am reminded of this fact. Faith of a mustard seed. Who loses faith completely. except those that never had faith to begin with which is exactly what the apostle john says, they were never of us

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

It's funny how such a statement(in red) could be so easily overlooked.

yes it is, Believed (not faith) in vein.

Even demons believe yet tremble.