Understanding God’s election

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Cranberry said:
That's scripture. It isn't PC. Nor subject to selective edits so that God the Potter is made more palatable to the clay.
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No, it's not Scripture. Nor is it justice. The Bible does not teach God made a people with their purpose is to end up in hell. That's ridiculous.

1. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.


2. Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out.

3.From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.”

4. ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.

5. Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

6. For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

7. I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

8. In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

9. I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

10. Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation...

Just a handful of verses that prove that God did not create a people for destruction.
 
Cranberry said:
That's scripture. It isn't PC. Nor subject to selective edits so that God the Potter is made more palatable to the clay.
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God exposes the hardness of hearts by allowing wrong teaching to prevail for a season....

Nothing is wasted in God's economy.

We are all being evaluated.
 
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Cranberry said:
That's scripture. It isn't PC. Nor subject to selective edits so that God the Potter is made more palatable to the clay.
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​

God created all people that He decreed to create.

The key to our delegated volitional sovereignty is to be understood in God's timing.

How could he create them before knowing their choice?

The key is to be found in the one THROUGH whom God created all things. Jesus Christ.
Nothing was created except through Him and For Him.

​
All things came-into-being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing ​
came into being, which has come-into-being." John 1:3​


John 1:3 speaks of Jesus Christ!
The same Son who is having two natures in union.
He is both fully man, and fully God - in union.

And, we know, by means of Philippians 2:6-8, that He has the ability to make Himself to become fully as a man.
Meaning, having no omniscience in that chosen state of being!

And, in that state of being?
The Father set forth the Son to create all things!

Create all things while in that state, not knowing the outcome of the choices of men and angels.
Only after creating them was He able to return to His omniscience, and see what they would freely choose for.

Yet, having created each one with His pure and perfect desire that all men and angels would love the Father as He loves the Father.

God found a way to keep our choices our own!

grace and peace ...........
 
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Besides the fact that he desires that all come to faith and understanding

1 Timothy 2

New King James Version



Pray for All Men
2 Therefore I [a]exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in [b]authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and [c]reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth [d]in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
there are more scriptures on salvation than condemnation and I have yet to come accross one that flat out says some were chosen to be saved and others not, yes there is
Romans 9:22-23 states:
  • "What if God, choosing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction?"
  • "In order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory—even us whom He called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles
however this longsuffering part says it allthis destruction for these vessels is not from God it is due to their own choices and he is patient and longsuffering and sometimes will even allow his wrath to be experienced but this scripture can be explained away on either side what cannot be explained away is he literally says he desires that all men would come to be saved but by all means if anyone can then please do because it seems this verse is always overlooked by those who would cling to this election thing
 
Blain said:
Besides the fact that he desires that all come to faith and understanding

1 Timothy 2

New King James Version



Pray for All Men
2 Therefore I [a]exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in [b]authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and [c]reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth [d]in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
there are more scriptures on salvation than condemnation and I have yet to come accross one that flat out says some were chosen to be saved and others not, yes there is
Romans 9:22-23 states:
  • "What if God, choosing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction?"
  • "In order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory—even us whom He called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles
however this longsuffering part says it allthis destruction for these vessels is not from God it is due to their own choices and he is patient and longsuffering and sometimes will even allow his wrath to be experienced but this scripture can be explained away on either side what cannot be explained away is he literally says he desires that all men would come to be saved but by all means if anyone can then please do because it seems this verse is always overlooked by those who would cling to this election thing
Click to expand...
Blain said:
Besides the fact that he desires that all come to faith and understanding

1 Timothy 2

New King James Version



Pray for All Men
2 Therefore I [a]exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in [b]authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and [c]reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth [d]in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
there are more scriptures on salvation than condemnation and I have yet to come accross one that flat out says some were chosen to be saved and others not, yes there is
Romans 9:22-23 states:
  • "What if God, choosing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction?"
  • "In order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory—even us whom He called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles
however this longsuffering part says it allthis destruction for these vessels is not from God it is due to their own choices and he is patient and longsuffering and sometimes will even allow his wrath to be experienced but this scripture can be explained away on either side what cannot be explained away is he literally says he desires that all men would come to be saved but by all means if anyone can then please do because it seems this verse is always overlooked by those who would cling to this election thing
Click to expand...
Prayer is only for all men pf the elect whose names have been written in the lambs book of life Rev 13:8;17:8 for they are the only ones God wills to be saved and come into the knowledge of the truth.

Some men God deliberately sends them a strong delusion to believe a lie, so they aren't the same ones 2 Thess 2:10-12

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

These men are not to be prayed for !
 
brightfame52 said:
Prayer is only for all men pf the elect whose names have been written in the lambs book of life Rev 13:8;17:8 for they are the only ones God wills to be saved and come into the knowledge of the truth.

Some men God deliberately sends them a strong delusion to believe a lie, so they aren't the same ones 2 Thess 2:10-12

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

These men are not to be prayed for !
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except that isn't what it said it didn't say for the ones who are the elect it said all men
 
on top of that Jesus said for who so ever would believe in him would be saved and again he says nothing about elect or chosen except that if possible they might be deceived his message was always believe and be saved never limiting who he just said whoever would. in regards to the elect there is very few scriptures that speak of it without human interpretation but you can find countless examples of salvation being given freely

But the fact it says all men what do you think he meant if not all
 
Inquisitor said:
I asked Reverend Chat GPT about Judas.

Using the New Testament would you say that Judas was saved or not saved?

The question of whether Judas Iscariot was saved or not is a deeply theological one, and interpretations vary across Christian traditions and perspectives. The New Testament provides evidence that can support differing conclusions. Let’s look at key passages and themes:

Arguments Suggesting Judas Was Not Saved:
  1. Jesus Calls Judas a "Devil" (John 6:70-71):
    • Jesus says, "Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil." This implies a fundamental separation from God.
  2. Betrayal as Fulfillment of Prophecy:
    • Judas is often linked to Old Testament prophecies about betrayal (e.g., Psalm 41:9), but his actions are seen as a willful choice to betray Jesus.
  3. Jesus' Words About Judas (Matthew 26:24):
    • Jesus says, "It would have been better for that man if he had not been born," which strongly implies eternal consequences for Judas’s actions.
  4. Judas' Death (Matthew 27:3-5, Acts 1:18-19):
    • Judas dies by suicide after feeling remorse for betraying Jesus. While he regrets his actions, there is no clear evidence in Scripture that he repents in a way leading to salvation.
  5. Replacement of Judas (Acts 1:24-25):
    • When the apostles replace Judas, it is said he went to "his own place," a phrase often interpreted as implying judgment or separation from God.
Arguments Suggesting the Possibility of Salvation:
  1. God's Grace and Mercy:
    • The New Testament emphasizes that salvation is through grace, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9). Some argue that Judas’s remorse (Matthew 27:3) might reflect an opportunity for grace.
  2. Jesus’ Prayer on the Cross (Luke 23:34):
    • Jesus prays for forgiveness for those who crucified Him, which could be extended to Judas as part of the larger context of divine mercy.
  3. God’s Sovereignty and Judas' Role:
    • Judas’s betrayal was part of God’s redemptive plan. Some argue that Judas was a necessary instrument in that plan, which could allow for mercy despite his actions.
Traditional Christian Interpretations:
  • Catholic and Orthodox Views: These traditions generally see Judas as lost, based on the gravity of his betrayal and lack of evidence of genuine repentance.
  • Protestant Views: Many Protestants also lean toward Judas being unsaved, emphasizing Jesus' statements and Judas's ultimate actions.
  • Some Minority Views: A few Christian thinkers speculate about Judas’s salvation, focusing on God’s limitless grace and the possibility of posthumous reconciliation.
Conclusion:
The majority of Christian interpretations lean toward Judas not being saved, primarily due to Jesus’ strong statements about him and the lack of evidence of repentance leading to salvation. However, the ultimate judgment belongs to God, whose mercy and justice surpass human understanding.
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4. On Judas repentance, actually was not being heard by God, only himself and the chief priest and elder heard him and I dont think he was saved.
 
ParticularWife said:
Men do evil of their own will, but it is all foreordained at the will of God, for his own glory. God is sovereign over everything, including Sin, and no act can occur without his eternal decree.
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You’re saying God ordains men to sun and do evil for his glory ?

I thought God was glorified through Christ and good works ?

“Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭2:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭6:20‬ ‭

Where does the Bible say God ordains men to do evil to glorify himself ?

If you are saying God can take the evil men do and use it to accomplish his good will I agree but I’m not really sure how a man doing evil glorified god I know how good works do but sin and evil doing not so much glory to God when evil is done that’s why he’s eliminating it all

Do you have a scripture explaining God ordains men to do evil to bring him glory ?

I think of this guy who just plowed into those people in New Orleans . This doesn’t give God any glory in his mind it glorified allah but that’s not really God that’s glorified by killings and violence we see the evidence of it here

Did God ordain this to bring himself glory ?

“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:5-7, 13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

or did mankind do something to corrupt the creation he made very good ? In other words did God ordain to make himself repent and grove his own heart by causing man to become wicked so he could be glorified ? This doesn’t make sense God doesn’t need evil to glorify himself Christ reveals all his glory
 
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