Grace or Works - For It Cannot Be Both

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Feb 8, 2021
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#1
Why do most people today reject the Gospel of Grace, and are there risks in doing so?

Rejection of the Gospel of Grace leads to no other possibility than to that of works-based salvation. It is either of grace through faith, with it ALL being of Christ only and what He accomplished on the cross through His death, burial and resurrection on the third day according to scripture, or it is by Law and/or works and the various mixtures thereof. It cannot be both in some recipe of strange mixtures that a number of denominational religions teach, with the top leader of the largest of which is now embracing perverse sexuality.

What's worse is that the span of its endorsements will only continue to broaden with time and pressures from the world as Satan continues to guide its paths, along with the paths of all the others that corrupt the whole loaf with the variations in the leaven content they try to intermix with grace. This will only strengthen its member's beliefs in their own good works intermixed with sins that older and previous generations found repugnant and horribly corrupt...clearly defined as sin leading only to the pathway of everlasting entanglement to one's sins; each individual never able to atone for them in the everlasting flames.

Allegorization, however, is the chief weapon of choice to battle against the authority of Paul's apostleship, evidenced in the mystery directly revealed first and only to him by the Lord that remained hidden in God since the creation of the world.

The website "gotquestions.org" grapples with this phenomenon by stating, "The simple answer is that salvation by works seems right in the eyes of man. One of man’s basic desires is to be in control of his own destiny, and that includes his eternal destiny. Salvation by works appeals to man’s pride and his desire to be in control. Being saved by works appeals to that desire far more than the idea of being saved by faith alone."

That's a very general assessment of some elements involved in the causations behind that philosophy, but the article failed to consider the "supernatural" forces at work to keep that system of deadness flowing through the hearts and minds of the adherents to any one of the variants of that belief system.

One Jehovah's Witness once cried in front of us, revealing her not knowing if she was "good enough" to make it into Heaven as a member of what they believe will be the "ruling class" since she didn't want to be stuck on the earth with all the other mediocre populace of mankind who were allegedly also Jehovah's Witnesses who didn't knock on enough doors and sell enough Watchtower publications and give away enough handouts touting their false religion.

The emotional scars that works-based salvations inflict upon all its victims run deep, along with the strength bolstered by the pride of our flesh that fuels our desire to supplement the Blood of Christ as if it were insufficient to provide for us the totality of our salvation. Attempts at amalgamations (mixtures) of grace with works FOR salvation all give reason to examine more deeply the faith in that individual.

What about you? Upon reflection, do YOU think that your works could ever supplement the perfection in the Blood of Christ? How can any of us ever hope to improve upon perfection?

Thoughts?

MM
 
Dec 30, 2024
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#2
It's the many definitions of Grace that get rejected. The Act of God's Grace and Mercy upon the Cross should be a staple belief for all those who are saved. But Grace used as a license to sin should 100% be rejected.
 
Feb 8, 2021
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#3
It's the many definitions of Grace that get rejected. The Act of God's Grace and Mercy upon the Cross should be a staple belief for all those who are saved. But Grace used as a license to sin should 100% be rejected.
I totally agree with you. ;)

A problem I have encountered, however, is the broad brush stroke misrepresentations of the grace alone through faith allegedly being a license to sin. Those who engage that level of demonization of the scriptures and the beliefs of those who follow scripture, that speaks of a deep-seated problem in their own beliefs, for if there were any measure of supplement that could ever add to the Blood of Christ unto salvation, then there would also be a way of completely earning one's salvation apart from the Blood of Christ, which is utterly false since we are told that there is no salvation without the shedding of blood.

1 Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying [is] not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

Our works are leaven, or as scripture also says, as "filthy rags" of the menstrual variety...where salvation is concerned.

Reward, on the other hand, is what our works accomplish, for the Judgement Seat of Christ will where our works are judged for Heavenly reward as the place to store up our treasures.

MM
 
Dec 30, 2024
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#4
I totally agree with you. ;)

A problem I have encountered, however, is the broad brush stroke misrepresentations of the grace alone through faith allegedly being a license to sin. Those who engage that level of demonization of the scriptures and the beliefs of those who follow scripture, that speaks of a deep-seated problem in their own beliefs, for if there were any measure of supplement that could ever add to the Blood of Christ unto salvation, then there would also be a way of completely earning one's salvation apart from the Blood of Christ, which is utterly false since we are told that there is no salvation without the shedding of blood.

1 Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying [is] not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

Our works are leaven, or as scripture also says, as "filthy rags" of the menstrual variety...where salvation is concerned.

Reward, on the other hand, is what our works accomplish, for the Judgement Seat of Christ will where our works are judged for Heavenly reward as the place to store up our treasures.

MM
Amen!
 
Nov 1, 2024
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#5
Allegorization, however, is the chief weapon of choice to battle against the authority of Paul's apostleship, evidenced in the mystery directly revealed first and only to him by the Lord that remained hidden in God since the creation of the world.
The bible is filled with allegory because ancient Hebrew is an allegorical language. So people who reject allegorical interpretations are IMO spiritual dullards who are unable to discern spiritual realities hidden beneath the surface, which God loves to do.

Paul himself used allegory, which authorizes it as a valid hermeneutical approach. So your statement is just ridiculous.

Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. Galatians 4:21-26
 

Omegatime

Well-known member
Apr 29, 2023
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#6
Greetings: Both Works and Saved by Grace are included in the scriptures.

If you call upon the name of the Lord Yeshua/Jesus you are saved by Grace. Good works for a christian brings rewards as MM said.

Now when we look upon the Sheep/ Goat Judgment those who did good works enter the Kingdom.

‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;--the sheep

35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me. Mat 25

Timing is the end of the Tribulation

Nations designate Gentiles

Both Sheep and Goats are unrighteous

There is no resurrection at end of the Tribulation--the Judgement is to determine who enters the kingdom with flesh and blood to repopulate the earth.

The rapture/resurrection happened about 3 years before and the sheep and goats are now inside the Day of the lord or the 1000 year reign of Christ also called the blessed Day. Time of saved by Grace ended at the resurrection.

The rapture/resurrection happened at Rev 14:14 Then I looked, and lo, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat upon the cloud, “Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.” 16 So he who sat upon the cloud swung his sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

Same story is told in Parable Wheat and Tares----reaping of the earth
 

glf

Active member
Mar 18, 2023
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#7
Grace, which is an unmerited gift is available to the chosen by faith. Works prove that faith is true.
The just shall live by faith. For it is by faith that you stand. Without faith it is imposible to please him... This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.
Faith is that form of believing that is authored by Jesus upon repentnace, and like the other fruits of the Spirit, is grown by scripture, and it always produces works appropriate to repentnace in those who actually have it.
 
Nov 14, 2024
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#8
Upon reflection, do YOU think that your works could ever supplement the perfection in the Blood of Christ?
No, but I definitely believe that people can count the blood of the covenant, wherewith they were sanctified, as an unholy thing by continuing to sin willfully, and thereby despising the very Spirit of grace of which you speak. For such, their end will not be pleasant.

Heb 10:26
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Let the wresting of scripture begin...
 

Edify

Well-known member
Jan 27, 2021
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#9
We all agree that our salvation is "by grace through faith".
What many do not know is what "through faith" means.
Through faith is showing faith by faithful obedience that proves what we actually believe.
Those who believe in "grace alone" are NOT saved, for they have no proven faith.

Luke 6:46
“Now why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

"Saying you have faith" will get you nothing. Proving you have faith by obeying Christ will.
It is just as Jesus said, "You will know them by their fruit".
 

Musicmaster

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2021
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#10
We all agree that our salvation is "by grace through faith".
What many do not know is what "through faith" means.
Through faith is showing faith by faithful obedience that proves what we actually believe.
Those who believe in "grace alone" are NOT saved, for they have no proven faith.


Luke 6:46
“Now why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?


Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

"Saying you have faith" will get you nothing. Proving you have faith by obeying Christ will.
It is just as Jesus said, "You will know them by their fruit".
Reliance upon that which was written to Israel, which included works as their sanctification, as was stated by James to those who were under the Kingdom Gospel, yes. What you said was true for them, but not for us today.

The Gospel of grace points to faith alone for salvation, and our works are the foundation upon which we build for reward that is tested by fire, as is stated within scripture,

Thanks for commenting.

MM
 

Musicmaster

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2021
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#11
No, but I definitely believe that people can count the blood of the covenant, wherewith they were sanctified, as an unholy thing by continuing to sin willfully, and thereby despising the very Spirit of grace of which you speak. For such, their end will not be pleasant.

Heb 10:26
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Let the wresting of scripture begin...
I'm glad that, as an Israeli, I don't have to worry about any of that since we today are not under covenant, for the covenants were unto Israel only, not the body of Christ, which is now comprised of both Jews and Gentiles who believe what is stated in the Gospel of Grace.

MM
 

Musicmaster

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2021
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#12
Grace, which is an unmerited gift is available to the chosen by faith. Works prove that faith is true.
That was indeed true for Israel, as stated by James to the twelve tribes. James was not speaking to the body of Christ for he was not the apostle unto the Gentiles.

MM
 

Musicmaster

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2021
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#13
Greetings: Both Works and Saved by Grace are included in the scriptures.
Yes, and there was also the requirement to follow and obey all the Law of Moses, but not all that is written in the Bible was written TO us today. As members of the body of Christ, we are not held to works as proof for salvation. That was for Israel, as James pointed out to them specifically. Rightly dividing the word of truth bears that out for us.

MM
 
Nov 1, 2024
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#14
That was indeed true for Israel, as stated by James to the twelve tribes. James was not speaking to the body of Christ for he was not the apostle unto the Gentiles.

MM
James message to them is to gentiles as well because there is no difference between Jew and gentile and the partition wall separating the two was abolished in Christ.
 
Nov 14, 2024
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#15
I'm glad that, as an Israeli, I don't have to worry about any of that since we today are not under covenant, for the covenants were unto Israel only, not the body of Christ, which is now comprised of both Jews and Gentiles who believe what is stated in the Gospel of Grace.

MM
If you are not under covenant, then you are lost.
 
Sep 2, 2020
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#16
We all agree that our salvation is "by grace through faith".
What many do not know is what "through faith" means.
Through faith is showing faith by faithful obedience that proves what we actually believe.
Those who believe in "grace alone" are NOT saved, for they have no proven faith.


Luke 6:46
“Now why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?


Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

"Saying you have faith" will get you nothing. Proving you have faith by obeying Christ will.
It is just as Jesus said, "You will know them by their fruit".
“In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, ( we can’t show anything without actions )

and I will show you my faith by my deeds. ( actions show our faith for what it really is )

You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. ….
….As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:17-19, 26‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithand this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

…..For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8-10‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭
 
Nov 1, 2024
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#17
I'm glad that, as an Israeli, I don't have to worry about any of that since we today are not under covenant, for the covenants were unto Israel only, not the body of Christ, which is now comprised of both Jews and Gentiles who believe what is stated in the Gospel of Grace.

MM
So your gospel of confusion says there are 2 gospels and no covenant. If you are not a participant in the new covenant you are not in Christ.
 
Aug 22, 2014
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#18
Yes, and there was also the requirement to follow and obey all the Law of Moses, but not all that is written in the Bible was written TO us today. As members of the body of Christ, we are not held to works as proof for salvation. That was for Israel, as James pointed out to them specifically. Rightly dividing the word of truth bears that out for us.

MM
I agree fully. There is a distinction between the two covenants, the two "ages". With out a doubt. I do also think it's important to understand and know exactly what being born again does to us, and how one who has been given this gift, this grace will become and how they now see everything. Even though we are no longer commanded to "follow the 10 commandment's", in the way the Israelites were, by the flesh, these same laws and principles are now written on our hearts and we desire to uphold them, and by the power and guidance of His Spirit that we are now reconciled with we are able to do this in a way that pleases God like we were unable to do Before He transforms us in this way.

Although I agree with you that I don't have to "live by the law" in the flesh as they were called to do, I can testify right here and now that I do uphold these laws better than I EVER even could have in the flesh (please do not mistake this as me saying "sinless perfection" or any kind of "I don't sin anymore" nonsense), and like His word says we will, I feel like He draws me in closer every day and I WANT to live in a more pleasing way to Him and see and hate my own sin enough that I want to change it, because I love Him and His example cannot be questioned, even by His enemies. So while I could not agree more with your point here and am in no way saying anything against anything you said. I just wanted to add and testify of His power and the glory of His forgiveness and what it does to us in the here and now.

I do now "work", and I want to "work" even harder, but I'm not working for my salvation or to keep my salvation. I'm working in gratitude for the glory of our King that saved me. Guess what? I get 0 credit for any of these "works" that I might do. You know why? Because I would have never done any of them before He saved me. I would have had no interest or the motivation to do ANY of the things I do now. It's only by His power any of it gets done, so I have nothing to boast about even in these "works", and I don't want any of it. It ALL belongs to Him, to Jesus our God and Savior.
 

Musicmaster

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2021
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#19
If you are not under covenant, then you are lost.
Can you show us a verse on that?

As an Israeli, I could on one hand claim the covenantal promises, but on the other I cannot because I am now covered under grace through faith, not a covenant handed over to Israel thousands of years ago.

Please keep in mind that the cup Jesus passed to Israel was a "testament," not a covenant. I realize translations such as the NIV changed the term to "covenant," but that is strange and downright false, for testaments are in effect AFTER the person dies, where covenants end when the person dies. Satan did his work very well to corrupt key terms so that the friction if disagreement remains a divisive force among professing believers. That's why I delve into the Greek rather than to rely solely on English translations.

1 Corinthians 11:25 KJV - After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

So, if you would, please provide scriptural evidence for your claim.

Thanks

MM
 

Musicmaster

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2021
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#20
I agree fully. There is a distinction between the two covenants, the two "ages". With out a doubt. I do also think it's important to understand and know exactly what being born again does to us, and how one who has been given this gift, this grace will become and how they now see everything. Even though we are no longer commanded to "follow the 10 commandment's", in the way the Israelites were, by the flesh, these same laws and principles are now written on our hearts and we desire to uphold them, and by the power and guidance of His Spirit that we are now reconciled with we are able to do this in a way that pleases God like we were unable to do Before He transforms us in this way.

Although I agree with you that I don't have to "live by the law" in the flesh as they were called to do, I can testify right here and now that I do uphold these laws better than I EVER even could have in the flesh (please do not mistake this as me saying "sinless perfection" or any kind of "I don't sin anymore" nonsense), and like His word says we will, I feel like He draws me in closer every day and I WANT to live in a more pleasing way to Him and see and hate my own sin enough that I want to change it, because I love Him and His example cannot be questioned, even by His enemies. So while I could not agree more with your point here and am in no way saying anything against anything you said. I just wanted to add and testify of His power and the glory of His forgiveness and what it does to us in the here and now.

I do now "work", and I want to "work" even harder, but I'm not working for my salvation or to keep my salvation. I'm working in gratitude for the glory of our King that saved me. Guess what? I get 0 credit for any of these "works" that I might do. You know why? Because I would have never done any of them before He saved me. I would have had no interest or the motivation to do ANY of the things I do now. It's only by His power any of it gets done, so I have nothing to boast about even in these "works", and I don't want any of it. It ALL belongs to Him, to Jesus our God and Savior.
Absolutely. In the new birth, we are no longer governed by the sin nature, thus sin being the exception in our lives rather than the rule. We still sin, but we are not under the total control of the sin nature.

With the word of God written on our hearts, good works flow out from the Spirit within us. Many a man has started ministries based solely on the strength of their own arms, not having originated from the Lord. Others have started religious movements on the basis of the strength of their own arms and under the supportive push of Satan himself, becoming great successes financially and in numbers of followers. As tools of Satan, they have their reward here on this earth, their works burning in the fires of testing that is coming to us all.

Those works we do in the Spirit, they are the precious gems and metals that will withstand the fire of testing.

That's even more enhanced in our understanding once we stop making the many false claims that replacement theology encourages and fosters in the hearts and minds of so many, thus their claiming Paul preached the same gospel as Peter and the eleven. When the drag the works required of those who were under the Kingdom Gospel under the umbrella of the Gospel of Grace, the confusions are bad enough, but the outflow of that confusion keeps them from realizing how great it is the salvation by grace through faith that we are under.

That doesn't mean we can then sit back and do nothing but slide through life, and even sin without concern for cost. Those are the false claims of the confused gospels mixture that they foist upon those to whom they try to bring to salvation in Christ. The failure to rightly divide the word of truth by trying to mix in works as even a supplement to grace, they are not rightly discerning the truth from falsehoods that Satan encourages in the minds and hearts of so many.

Good stuff. Thanks for sharing.

MM