Understanding God’s election

[Cameron143]

Paul was telling the Jews that it was by faith all through Romans.

The Israelites never really exercised faith they were were driven by works of the law.

Your trying to tell me that the Jews actually had faith?

They believed they would be healed by God if the looked upon the serpent. Why they believed that I don't know. I can't see into people's hearts.
No doubt, some would believe because they saw others look and were healed. Others would have looked out of desperation. And some would have looked believing the word of God as spoken through Moses.

 

[GWH]

And how would this heresy enter the churches if it were not for the fact that it gives itself cover by sounding very Christ/God centered.

Only to the ignorant--which I once was, but now I realize:

God is love (1JN 4:7-21)

God is just (2THS 1:6)

Choosing to save some but condemn others is neither--although God could be demonic if He so chooses. God the Father could change His will, God the Son could sin, and God the Holy Spirit could inspire evil. It is possible for God to be tricky, because if God cannot do what He has decreed to be evil, then He would not be as free as volitional creatures, and there would be no basis for praising His holiness.

Paul (in RM 9:16-21) upholds the freedom of God to love or hate as He chooses. Just as God created physical laws such as gravity, so He created moral laws such as “love everyone” and determined a plan of salvation involving the atoning death of Messiah to win our redemption from hell. Thou shalt love (MT 22:37-40).

The cliche “might makes right” is true; it is because God is almighty that only He can determine what is right ultimately. There is no super-divine authority that determines God; God is self-determined. The only basis humans have for evaluating whether God is just or righteous is understanding how God’s acts and judgments are consistent with the moral principles He has ordained for those created in His image (RM 3:22-26).

If God were ever to change His mind, it would mean that God is tricky and that morality is ultimately arbitrary. Thus, ultimate reality would indeed be a farce. This is why we should not take God and divine love for granted. Instead, we should be eternally grateful that God has decreed loving to be right, and He promises never to change (ML 3:6). Let us praise God in the spirit of Psalm 66:1: “Shout with joy to God, all the earth! Sing to the glory of his name; Offer him glory and praise!”


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[Jimbone]

God desires that all men be saved...
Sure... but the Calvinist bigots see otherwise.

They must keep it too simple for themselves, because they are doctrinally inept.
They keep pointing to one thing to keep dragging us back to, so they can divert away from exposing themselves for what they are.
Not only that, but they can not think with the Word of God beyond their small town mentality.

And, to keep it simple?
We are the "free willers."

What they call" free willers" are the blacks, and they are the KKK.

It's dealing with something on that level.

Could be worse though.
If this were centuries ago, they would want us burned on a stake.... like they used to do when TULIP was invented.

TULIP was spawned out of that level of thinking.

Good Lord you're thick. You are everything you just describe "the enemy" as. You're just like the Democrat party, point, scream, and accuse others of everything you're guilty of. You condemn for things you're doing in the very same sentence. This is madness and a complete failure and embarrassment to Jesus name and teachings.
You know Genez, you seem to think you're better than others, are you this blind to your own actions and behavior? Can you tell me why you're better? Do you think you're glorifying God by behaving like this and speaking to others that proclaim His name, even if they don't see things the exact same way as you, in this way? One thing is FOR SURE, they don't see anything like you say they do. No one does. But instead of trying to come together and maybe try understanding how they ACTUALLY look at it, we might find we aren't as far apart as you think. I have to be honest here, I have not found a single good faith debater on your side of this debate. You all lie about what the other side believes and teaches. You label us, we don't proclaim the things you say we do. You just don't listen and then lie to yourselves and to us about what we believe.

It's no different that what the Democrat nut jobs do with Trump. Instead of TDS, you suffer from CDS (Calvin Derangement Syndrome), and if I'm honest I think a little bit of Main Character Syndrome as well. You have to make us that, before you destroy it. It's honestly a little (a LOT) sad, and you should take time to self reflect on it. This crew reminds me SO MUCH of the "pastor" Anderson and the NIFB crew. You are driven by anger and hate pointing to some kind of compensation for other internal shortcomings. Reread your comment man, they're venomous and borderline delusional. I wish you the best brother, but you've got to find a better battle than being divisive. (me too)

 

[cv5]

“I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Daemonism. If ever man worshipped a false god, he did. The being described in his 5 points is not the god whom you and I acknowledge and adore, the Creator and benevolent and governor of the world, but a daemon of malignant spirit. It would be more pardonable to believe in no god at all, than to blaspheme him by the atrocious attributes of Calvin.”

—Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823.

Wow. That quote is new to me. And so very insightful.
I suspect that this would be the assessment of most everyone but......a Calvinite.

 

[HeIsHere]

They believed they would be healed by God if the looked upon the serpent. Why they believed that I don't know. I can't see into people's hearts.
No doubt, some would believe because they saw others look and were healed. Others would have looked out of desperation. And some would have looked believing the word of God as spoken through Moses.

Oh so now, some had the ability to believe and respond positively based on the information they were given.

 

[cv5]

They believed they would be healed by God if the looked upon the serpent. Why they believed that I don't know. I can't see into people's hearts.
1)No doubt, some would believe because they saw others look and were healed.
2)Others would have looked out of desperation.
3)And some would have looked believing the word of God as spoken through Moses.

Correct. Its hard to believe that you finally got one right......but correct.

And the OFFER of salvation in Christ......can be and often is ACCEPTED PRECISELY THE SAME WAY. Precisely.
And for PRECISELY these same reasons......and many many more.

1) Jesus ministry and that of the apostles. Literal healings were the reason MANY believed
2) think the thief on the cross and Philippian jailer. And MANY others.
3) the ministry of the Church today. Our testimony is believed by many.

And again, the bizarre Calvinite sophistry DOES NOT factor into any of this at all.

OFFER - ACCEPTED
SALVATION - RECEIVED
COVENANT FORMULATED/INITIATIATED/PAID FOR - ANYONE WHO WILLS/DESIRES MAY ENTER IN
GOD IS THE PRIME MOVER - WE ARE THE RESPONDERS

Simple as that.

 

[HeIsHere]

Correct. Its hard to believe that you finally got one right......but correct.

I know exactly what you mean.... I was reading and re-reading ...

 

[cv5]

Oh so now, some had the ability to believe and respond positively based on the information they were given.

Nothing could possibly be more clear.
Unless the Calvinite doomer mind virus ate your brain.

 

[HeIsHere]

Nothing could possibly be more clear.
Unless the Calvinite doomer mind virus ate your brain.

I am eager for the response because acknowledging this affects their entire soteriology.

The typical response is God selected some to gift belief and they are the ones who looked even though that is not in the text, it is the assumption layered over based on their other proof texts.

 

[Cameron143]

Oh so now, some had the ability to believe and respond positively based on the information they were given.

That's always true. The source of the information has always been important. Jesus builds His church based on the Revelation of the Father. But information can come through our human senses that saves our physical lives. You are saved this way every time you drive a vehicle.

 

[HeIsHere]

That's always true. The source of the information has always been important. Jesus builds His church based on the Revelation of the Father. But information can come through our human senses that saves our physical lives. You are saved this way every time you drive a vehicle.

Wow, just wow!
I can't even....

 

[cv5]

I am eager for the response because acknowledging this affects their entire soteriology.

The typical response is God selected some to gift belief and they are the ones who looked even though that is not in the text, it is the assumption layered over based on their other proof texts.

Oh yes. The Calvinite dogma is a figment of vain imagination that's for sure. A cruel and brutal imagination.

Biblical soteriology is all wrapped up and PROOFED in the NARRATIVES and OBJECT LESSONS and TYPES.
They are the template. They are the intended examples. And they are UTTERLY consistent. Absolutely unwaveringly consistent.
Cover to cover.

[Gen 2:16 KJV]
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

[Rev 22:17 KJV]
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[Cameron143]

Correct. Its hard to believe that you finally got one right......but correct.

And the OFFER of salvation in Christ......can be and often is ACCEPTED PRECISELY THE SAME WAY. Precisely.
And for PRECISELY these same reasons......and many many more.

1) Jesus ministry and that of the apostles. Literal healings were the reason MANY believed
2) think the thief on the cross and Philippian jailer. And MANY others.
3) the ministry of the Church today. Our testimony is believed by many.

And again, the bizarre Calvinite sophistry DOES NOT factor into any of this at all.

OFFER - ACCEPTED
SALVATION - RECEIVED
COVENANT FORMULATED/INITIATIATED/PAID FOR - ANYONE WHO WILLS/DESIRES MAY ENTER IN
GOD IS THE PRIME MOVER - WE ARE THE RESPONDERS

Simple as that.

Your assumptions are based solely on the ability of a natural fallen man being able to do things spiritually that God says they can't. Physical salvation biblically does teach about spiritual salvation, but each individual example doesn't teach the entirety that is to be known on the subject. And neither will what is being taught conflict with the whole of scripture.

 

[HeIsHere]

That's always true. The source of the information has always been important. Jesus builds His church based on the Revelation of the Father. But information can come through our human senses that saves our physical lives. You are saved this way every time you drive a vehicle.

So basically they were able to believe because it was physical salvation, you are pushing this aside as an object lesson or type for believing in/trusting in Christ Jesus for salvation.

I knew there would be a catch.

 

[cv5]

That's always true. The source of the information has always been important. Jesus builds His church based on the Revelation of the Father. But information can come through our human senses that saves our physical lives. You are saved this way every time you drive a vehicle.

Remember the Gong Show?
Wa wa waaaaaaa.

 

[HeIsHere]

Well @cv5 we should have known there would be a way around the obvious.

There goes the glimmer of that hope.

 

[rogerg]

Acts 2:38
Repent, Peter said to them, and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus the Messiah for
the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The gifts of the Holy Spirit are not the same things as being indwelt with the Holy Spirit.
The gifts of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit falling upon someone, were usually for a limited duration and for a special purpose. Being indwelt by the Holy Spirit, on the other hand, is permanent upon becoming born-again.

While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. And the

The "hearing" in view is to hear spiritually, not physically. Only those born-again are given "ears that hear" and 'eyes that see".

In the following verse, their eyes and ears were "blessed" by God so that they would/could see and hear spiritually.
God does not bless everyone in that manner, and unless He does, they remain spiritually blind and deaf.

[Mat 13:16 KJV] 16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

[Jhn 12:40 KJV]
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

[2Co 4:3-4 KJV]
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

You refuted your own point with the "when they received the Holy Spirit they began speaking in tongues". That demonstrates
Paul's intent - that it resulted with them temporarily speaking in tongues. Again, different than being indwelt.

This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

It is clearer in Galatians 3:5: the Spirit ministered to them through the true faith that accompanied the indwelling of the Spirit (via His fruit); that is, the Holy Spirit's ministration, was accomplished by spiritually hearing, through the faith they were given, upon becoming saved/born-again.

[Gal 3:5 KJV] 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Ephesians 1:13-14
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him,
were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession
of it, to the praise of his glory.

Someone becomes sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe, which belief, comes as a gift from God.

[Phl 1:29 KJV] 29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

You only receive the Holy Spirit after you believe.

Do you have any verses that tell us that someone had the Holy Spirit, when they were born?

Yes, we are given true faith and belief AFTER, and BY, having received the Holy Spirit, not before, and it is not by us.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[Cameron143]

Wow, just wow!
I can't even....

You believe because someone says...Lord, Lord...a person is saved? You believe those Jesus spoke of weren't familiar with Him or the faith? Of course they did. So what was lacking? They never KNEW Him. No personal revelation from God. So how did they know what they knew? Through natural means.

 

[HeIsHere]

Maybe a CT brain scan is in order?
I mean hook up that EEG ASAP and see if there are any residual neutrons left alive.

Because that kind of response is an extremely dire symptom of the disease.

Troubling that this is also contagious.

 

[keepingthingsreal]

Remember the Gong Show?

No matter how many rightly divided verses you throw at them, they are going to continue dancing around them. It pains me to see that some of you are still wasting your time here.