The Teachings of Jesus (TOJ)

[GWH]

Righteousness, which we have from Christ, is with love for others, which is demonstrated. Jesus Christ showed the example for this, and taught for this, and the fruits of the Spirit for believers to grow in really includes this.

About the end and catastrophes, civilization will collapse, Jesus Christ will still then return, to rule and reign, with work that all will be involved in for rebuilding to restore the world to how it is meant to be with godly dominion which has good stewardship for this world.

Amen!

 

[GWH]

TOJ #140: The gospel will be proclaimed throughout the world before the end. [MT 24:14//MK 13:10] Although believers should seek to evangelize the world and work to bring God’s peace on earth, Jesus indicates most people will reject their efforts (TOJ #46).

TOJ #141: The “abomination that causes desolation” will be the final blow. [MT 24:15-20//MK 13:14-18] This sounds like it might be a nuclear bomb in Jerusalem (pun :^), in which case the only hope for survival would be to find shelter in mountain caves before it was detonated. The wording in Luke {LK 21:20-24} seems to describe this event in terms of the sack of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 A.D. Perhaps what occurred then will happen again and extend around the world in the future.

TOJ #142: Christ’s second coming will be visible and instantaneous. [MT 24:27-28//MK 13:26//LK 21:27] The connection with judgment is found in Hebrews 9:27-28. The reference to vultures could be literal, or it might signify the arrival of hell’s angels to collect the demonic souls who remain behind after Believers are raptured (the next TOJ).

 

[studier]

Does anyone want to guess how many TOJ will be enumerated before I am through listing them? :^)

Per another thread, 205.

Question: On that other thread you seem to parallel the TOJ with the COJ (Commandments of Jesus).

• Is this your intention?
• Did I read you correctly somewhere that this is a study to understand Jesus' command in the Commission to teach all He commanded?
• Have you studied how this might correlate to the approximately 1,000 commands in the NT Writings - or approximately 800+ (as I recall) when we strip out commands as a part of narratives?

Suggestion: Keep the gate closed on the Sabbath issue cats. Herding doesn't work.

 

[GWH]

Per another thread, 205.

Question: On that other thread you seem to parallel the TOJ with the COJ (Commandments of Jesus).

• Is this your intention?
• Did I read you correctly somewhere that this is a study to understand Jesus' command in the Commission to teach all He commanded?
• Have you studied how this might correlate to the approximately 1,000 commands in the NT Writings - or approximately 800+ (as I recall) when we strip out commands as a part of narratives?

Suggestion: Keep the gate closed on the Sabbath issue cats. Herding doesn't work.

The TOJ & COJ are related but not equated as indicated by my saying that "the 205 commandments or teachings of Jesus are being presented a few at a time...".

Yes, my presentation is meant to include all of the TOJ and COJ with only brief commentary, mainly to connect them with the TOP, but no, I have not counted the distinct teachings or commands by him or the other NT writers. (Perhaps that can be a future project :^)

Thanks for the sound advice re trolling Sabbateurs.

 

[studier]

The TOJ & COJ are related but not equated as indicated by my saying that "the 205 commandments or teachings of Jesus are being presented a few at a time...".

Yes, my presentation is meant to include all of the TOJ and COJ with only brief commentary, mainly to connect them with the TOP, but no, I have not counted the distinct teachings or commands by him or the other NT writers. (Perhaps that can be a future project :^)

Thanks for the sound advice re trolling Sabbateurs.

So, "or" means related but not equated. Thus the 205 is comprised of commandments and teachings, correct?

"TOP"?

Do you see His command in Matt28:20 to include only what He had commanded them, or also to include what He would command them post Seating?

I and others (found online) have catalogued all the NT commandments. Last time I looked I recall 550-600 in the epistles. Having such interest, your "COJ" comment caught my eye.

 

[GWH]

So, "or" means related but not equated. Thus the 205 is comprised of commandments and teachings, correct?

"TOP"?

Do you see His command in Matt28:20 to include only what He had commanded them, or also to include what He would command them post Seating?

I and others (found online) have catalogued all the NT commandments. Last time I looked I recall 550-600 in the epistles. Having such interest, your "COJ" comment caught my eye.

Re "So, "or" means related but not equated. Thus the 205 is comprised of commandments and teachings, correct?": Yes.

"TOP"? Teachings of Paul mostly and Peter possibly.

Re "Do you see His command in Matt28:20 to include only what He had commanded them, or also to include what He would command them post Seating?": I refer to teachings that are secondary or subsequent to the kerygma/those about GRFS by another Greek word, didache, which means teaching. The didache may be very important and requisite for becoming spiritually mature, but it is not most important or necessary to know/believe in order to be saved.

The distinction between kerygma/saving faith and didache/working faith was made by Jesus when He commissioned His original twelve disciples minus Judas (MT 28:19-20). This “Great Commission” speaks of both types of information. The kerygma is indicated by verse 19, in which Jesus says, “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations”. A Christian disciple is a learner or one who believes the good news about God’s offer of eternal life to all who accept Jesus as Christ, the Lord incarnate.

The didache is implicit in verse 20, in which Jesus continues by saying “teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.” This speaks of the information a disciple needs to know and believe after conversion in order to grow in Christ-likeness regarding how to live the law of love. It is the “all truth” that is taught by the Spirit referred to in John 16:13. Again, it is very important but not necessary for salvation. Witness the thief on the cross in Luke 23:39-43, who had no opportunity to learn the didache after his conversion; although, like Paul (according to Acts 22:3) and most adults, some didachaic truth is learned prior to knowing the kerygma.

Re "I and others (found online) have catalogued all the NT commandments. Last time I looked I recall 550-600 in the epistles. Having such interest, your "COJ" comment caught my eye.": Eye see we see along the same lines :^), but I bet y'all omitted plain old teachings and did not count repetitions of the same commands as one number? If you did and did not, then I may attempt to do that. Do you have your catalogue posted on CC?

 

[studier]

Re "So, "or" means related but not equated. Thus the 205 is comprised of commandments and teachings, correct?": Yes.

"TOP"? Teachings of Paul mostly and Peter possibly.

Thanks

Re "Do you see His command in Matt28:20 to include only what He had commanded them, or also to include what He would command them post Seating?": I refer to teachings that are secondary or subsequent to the kerygma/those about GRFS by another Greek word, didache, which means teaching. The didache may be very important and requisite for becoming spiritually mature, but it is not most important or necessary to know/believe in order to be saved.

Yes, I've read your explanation re: K & D. Biblically some of the D is also the K but I'm working with your choice of terminology.

I'd question your differentiation between maturity and being saved since you've also written as I recall of 3 (?) parts or concepts of salvation.

The distinction between kerygma/saving faith and didache/working faith was made by Jesus when He commissioned His original twelve disciples minus Judas (MT 28:19-20). This “Great Commission” speaks of both types of information. The kerygma is indicated by verse 19, in which Jesus says, “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations”. A Christian disciple is a learner or one who believes the good news about God’s offer of eternal life to all who accept Jesus as Christ, the Lord incarnate.

The didache is implicit in verse 20, in which Jesus continues by saying “teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.” This speaks of the information a disciple needs to know and believe after conversion in order to grow in Christ-likeness regarding how to live the law of love. It is the “all truth” that is taught by the Spirit referred to in John 16:13. Again, it is very important but not necessary for salvation. Witness the thief on the cross in Luke 23:39-43, who had no opportunity to learn the didache after his conversion; although, like Paul (according to Acts 22:3) and most adults, some didachaic truth is learned prior to knowing the kerygma.

Again, I'm working with your chosen terminology, but I see issues with it:

• As I said above, it's all effectively teaching, including the kerygma, which is to be learned, believed and obeyed, which two words (believe & obey) have so much overlap that they are almost synonymous.
• If I look at the language of the GC:
  • NKJ Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
    • This is in answer to some of the hesitation of some of the disciples exhibited in the previous verse. In essence Jesus reiterates that He is YHWH's Christ/Anointed and Ps2 and more has been fulfilled in that He has inherited the earth, etc. So, His presence and absolute authority established. So, please don't hesitate to "worship" which means to bow in obeisance which essentially just means to reverentially submit.
  • NKJ Matthew 28:19-20 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
    • Rather than me going through this, here are the notes from the NET Bible for us both to consider:
      • NET Notes (Mat 28:19)
        
        27 tn "Go…baptize…teach" are participles modifying the imperative verb "make disciples." According to ExSyn 645 the first participle (πορευθέντες, poreuthentes, "Go") fits the typical structural pattern for the attendant circumstance participle (aorist participle preceding aorist main verb, with the mood of the main verb usually imperative or indicative) and thus picks up the mood (imperative in this case) from the main verb (μαθητεύσατε, matheÒteusate, "make disciples"). This means that semantically the action of "going" is commanded, just as "making disciples" is. As for the two participles that follow the main verb (βαπτίζοντες, baptizontes, "baptizing"; and διδάσκοντες, didaskontes, "teaching"), these do not fit the normal pattern for attendant circumstance participles, since they are present participles and follow the aorist main verb. However, some interpreters do see them as carrying additional imperative force in context. Others regard them as means, manner, or even result.
        • IOW, is it:
          • Go, disciple, baptize, teach
          • Go, disciple by means of baptizing, by means of teaching
          • Go, disciple as a result of baptizing, as a result of teaching
          • Or?
        • IOW distinguishing between kerygma and didache is not as clear as it may seem.
      • Jesus' last statement is also part of the reason I asked you about "commanded" in v.20. It's an aorist verb and as you likely know from RBT, aorists are timeless, usually translated in English past tense, but get their true meaning from context and other markers. Jesus is standing there in resurrection telling them He is with them [in this endeavor] until the end/completion of the age. This dynamic relationship will provide more understanding and instruction [commands/teaching].
• Again, what do you mean by "salvation" when you've referred to different parts of salvation?
• Re: Luke 23, what do you do with this verse?
  • Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom." (Lk. 23:42 NKJ)
    • It looks to me like we have [pre-resurrection] belief as well as confession. I think I read you somewhere say that Rom10 belief is kerygma and confession is good works. If so, using your terminology, then we have the thief with the kerygma and some didache with confession of Jesus as Kurios and of His Kingdom.
  • All this again to say that there is a lot of overlap in K & D. I can flow with your chosen terminology, but, as can be seen here, it will raise questions and comments.

Re "I and others (found online) have catalogued all the NT commandments. Last time I looked I recall 550-600 in the epistles. Having such interest, your "COJ" comment caught my eye.": Eye see we see along the same lines :^), but I bet y'all omitted plain old teachings and did not count repetitions of the same commands as one number? If you did and did not, then I may attempt to do that. Do you have your catalogue posted on CC?

Every serious student of the Word should have the same lines. It's representative of our times proceeding from long ago that we are so denominationalized, to put it one way.

I simply searched every imperative command and every form of Greek grammar that is imperatival. Yes, there may be duplications or similar commands in different terminology, but I don't recall at the moment. Nevertheless, the commands are numerous as I've indicated.

My work is not online.

I did look at your site and read some of it, BTW. You've done a lot of work. Before I read some of your posts on CC, I was pretty certain I could see RBT in the background. As you know, his terminology is distinctive.

 

[GWH]

Thanks



Yes, I've read your explanation re: K & D. Biblically some of the D is also the K but I'm working with your choice of terminology.

I'd question your differentiation between maturity and being saved since you've also written as I recall of 3 (?) parts or concepts of salvation.



Again, I'm working with your chosen terminology, but I see issues with it:

• As I said above, it's all effectively teaching, including the kerygma, which is to be learned, believed and obeyed, which two words (believe & obey) have so much overlap that they are almost synonymous.
• If I look at the language of the GC:
  • NKJ Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
    • This is in answer to some of the hesitation of some of the disciples exhibited in the previous verse. In essence Jesus reiterates that He is YHWH's Christ/Anointed and Ps2 and more has been fulfilled in that He has inherited the earth, etc. So, His presence and absolute authority established. So, please don't hesitate to "worship" which means to bow in obeisance which essentially just means to reverentially submit.
  • NKJ Matthew 28:19-20 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
    • Rather than me going through this, here are the notes from the NET Bible for us both to consider:
      • NET Notes (Mat 28:19)
        
        27 tn "Go…baptize…teach" are participles modifying the imperative verb "make disciples." According to ExSyn 645 the first participle (πορευθέντες, poreuthentes, "Go") fits the typical structural pattern for the attendant circumstance participle (aorist participle preceding aorist main verb, with the mood of the main verb usually imperative or indicative) and thus picks up the mood (imperative in this case) from the main verb (μαθητεύσατε, matheÒteusate, "make disciples"). This means that semantically the action of "going" is commanded, just as "making disciples" is. As for the two participles that follow the main verb (βαπτίζοντες, baptizontes, "baptizing"; and διδάσκοντες, didaskontes, "teaching"), these do not fit the normal pattern for attendant circumstance participles, since they are present participles and follow the aorist main verb. However, some interpreters do see them as carrying additional imperative force in context. Others regard them as means, manner, or even result.
        • IOW, is it:
          • Go, disciple, baptize, teach
          • Go, disciple by means of baptizing, by means of teaching
          • Go, disciple as a result of baptizing, as a result of teaching
          • Or?
        • IOW distinguishing between kerygma and didache is not as clear as it may seem.
      • Jesus' last statement is also part of the reason I asked you about "commanded" in v.20. It's an aorist verb and as you likely know from RBT, aorists are timeless, usually translated in English past tense, but get their true meaning from context and other markers. Jesus is standing there in resurrection telling them He is with them [in this endeavor] until the end/completion of the age. This dynamic relationship will provide more understanding and instruction [commands/teaching].
• Again, what do you mean by "salvation" when you've referred to different parts of salvation?
• Re: Luke 23, what do you do with this verse?
  • Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom." (Lk. 23:42 NKJ)
    • It looks to me like we have [pre-resurrection] belief as well as confession. I think I read you somewhere say that Rom10 belief is kerygma and confession is good works. If so, using your terminology, then we have the thief with the kerygma and some didache with confession of Jesus as Kurios and of His Kingdom.
  • All this again to say that there is a lot of overlap in K & D. I can flow with your chosen terminology, but, as can be seen here, it will raise questions and comments.

Every serious student of the Word should have the same lines. It's representative of our times proceeding from long ago that we are so denominationalized, to put it one way.

I simply searched every imperative command and every form of Greek grammar that is imperatival. Yes, there may be duplications or similar commands in different terminology, but I don't recall at the moment. Nevertheless, the commands are numerous as I've indicated.

My work is not online.

I did look at your site and read some of it, BTW. You've done a lot of work. Before I read some of your posts on CC, I was pretty certain I could see RBT in the background. As you know, his terminology is distinctive.

Yes, there is some overlap of the kerygma with the didache, but perhaps it would help for you to keep in mind that GRFS means the minimum faith/understanding that is necessary in order to be saved, which a child old enough to be accountable for sin would be able to believe--and which I trust you agree would not include the hundreds of teachings, but only those in the five-point elaboration that I compiled and assume you have seen. IOW, you may be overthinking this and getting deeper than God requires for salvation.

Thanks for your comments, and feel free to continue critiquing my website constructively, because it has been a life-long work in progress and my goal is to share my testimony/life and understanding of GW up to this point in time (for what it's worth :^)

 

[studier]

Yes, there is some overlap of the kerygma with the didache, but perhaps it would help for you to keep in mind that GRFS means the minimum faith/understanding that is necessary in order to be saved, which a child old enough to be accountable for sin would be able to believe--and which I trust you agree would not include the hundreds of teachings, but only those in the five-point elaboration that I compiled and assume you have seen. IOW, you may be overthinking this and getting deeper than God requires for salvation.

Thanks for your comments, and feel free to continue critiquing my website constructively, because it has been a life-long work in progress and my goal is to share my testimony/life and understanding of GW up to this point in time (for what it's worth :^)

I'm familiar with "operation overthink" and yes, I'm sure I get into it, but it's relative to the one alleging it. With that said, IMO you may be overstating the GRFS. I did look at your GRFS points, and my response was to point to 2 Foundation verses and their didache.

Years ago, circumstances (IOW the Spirit) led me to do some lengthy and very focused studies on topics most, as I did, think they well understand - those topics mainly being faith, salvation, and the Gospel.

At this point, and for some time, I'm of the opinion that the Only Foundation is not being placed/laid properly in much of our practice. As you noted, a nine-year-old can understand it. Foundationally it's who is Jesus, what does Christ mean, and what are the implications for humanity pursuant to this didache aka kerygma?

An interesting study is just what didache was actually taught to unbelievers vs. believers? You're working on this but I'm not well enough read in your extensive writings to determine whether or not or how much I agree with you. And, due to the extent of some of your writings, your chosen terminology, and your extensive verse referencing with no ability on this site to hover and read verses, it's quite a project to focus in detail and examine what you're saying. It is interesting reading your work and watching you work to maintain composure when dealing with immaturity and other things.

 

[GWH]

I'm familiar with "operation overthink" and yes, I'm sure I get into it, but it's relative to the one alleging it. With that said, IMO you may be overstating the GRFS. I did look at your GRFS points, and my response was to point to 2 Foundation verses and their didache.

Years ago, circumstances (IOW the Spirit) led me to do some lengthy and very focused studies on topics most, as I did, think they well understand - those topics mainly being faith, salvation, and the Gospel.

At this point, and for some time, I'm of the opinion that the Only Foundation is not being placed/laid properly in much of our practice. As you noted, a nine-year-old can understand it. Foundationally it's who is Jesus, what does Christ mean, and what are the implications for humanity pursuant to this didache aka kerygma?

An interesting study is just what didache was actually taught to unbelievers vs. believers? You're working on this but I'm not well enough read in your extensive writings to determine whether or not or how much I agree with you. And, due to the extent of some of your writings, your chosen terminology, and your extensive verse referencing with no ability on this site to hover and read verses, it's quite a project to focus in detail and examine what you're saying. It is interesting reading your work and watching you work to maintain composure when dealing with immaturity and other things.

You asked the foundational questions and the five point elaboration supplies the answers.

Regarding composure, you are perceptive! :^)

 

[studier]

You asked the foundational questions and the five point elaboration supplies the answers.

Regarding composure, you are perceptive! :^)

Your 5 points of “orthodoxy” I think you referred to them as, what makes them orthodoxy?

I find such work interesting in that it quotes Biblical titles for Jesus, but doesn’t really explain them. Although I did notice in point 4 I think that you called Jesus the Supreme Commander. A Biblical term or your replacement for the Ps2 [YHWH’s] King?

 

[GWH]

Your 5 points of “orthodoxy” I think you referred to them as, what makes them orthodoxy?

I find such work interesting in that it quotes Biblical titles for Jesus, but doesn’t really explain them. Although I did notice in point 4 I think that you called Jesus the Supreme Commander. A Biblical term or your replacement for the Ps2 [YHWH’s] King?

Ortho means right or true, and dox means belief, so orthodox means right belief, although who determines that is debatable. IMO Scripture determines it, but the Bible is not written systematically so that we can find the complete doctrine explained in one passage, and thus whose interpretation is closest to perfect is debatable--as we see illustrated on CC.

Yes, Supreme Commander replaces or explains Lord/King.

 

[studier]

Ortho means right or true, and dox means belief, so orthodox means right belief, although who determines that is debatable. IMO Scripture determines it, but the Bible is not written systematically so that we can find the complete doctrine explained in one passage, and thus whose interpretation is closest to perfect is debatable--as we see illustrated on CC.

Yes, Supreme Commander replaces or explains Lord/King.

Thanks, but did you answer my question: what makes your 5 points orthodoxy when it comes to what God requires for salvation?

 

[GWH]

Thanks, but did you answer my question: what makes your 5 points orthodoxy when it comes to what God requires for salvation?

right belief... Scripture determines it..., but it is debatable

 

[studier]

right belief... Scripture determines it..., but it is debatable

If it's truly orthodox, then it may be debated, but it's not truly debatable. If your 5 points are truly debatable, then they're [likely] not orthodox.