Understanding God’s election

[Rufus]

The key is found only in God's leading grace...

One must be led by the Spirit into finding hidden treasure - finding a competent, anointed pastor teacher.
One who is able to dig out from God's Word, gold, silver, and precious stones for us to live by.

And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, ​

and those whom he justified he also glorified." Romans 8:30​

So when it says?
Many are called, but few are chosen?

Many are called (saved), but few out of the many will be chosen to serve with Him.
For it takes spiritually maturity in Christ for Him to chose those who will reign with Him.

Yet? Even if not chosen to serve with Him? All will be glorified!

Glorified with glorious Resurrection bodies for all!


It's too good to fully grasp now.

Nonsense! The many who are called in Mat 22:14 speaks to the outward call of the Gospel. The "call" in this passage is not speaking about the inner call of the Holy Spirit. It's talking about the invitation of the Gospel. Take the Parable of the Great Banquet in Luke 14 as a great example. Many were called (invited) to the feast but few were chosen -- and the "few" who were chosen were compelled to come into the feast (v. 23)! The rest who refused the invitation did not taste the banquet (v. 24)!

Also, service to Christ is not an option! It's mandatory. But I'll quit here because of time constraints. But if you persist in your wilfull ignorance of the scriptures, then I will prove this last assertion tomorrow.

 

[Rufus]

The clay for honorable use was the nation of Israel.

That's the context.

Nonsense! God doesn't have multiple salvation plans. Besides, Romans is written to Gentile believers, remember? THAT is the CONTEXT! He's not even addressing Jews in Rom 9!

 

[Inquisitor]

Nonsense! The many who are called in Mat 22:14 speaks to the outward call of the Gospel. The "call" in this passage is not speaking about the inner call of the Holy Spirit. It's talking about the invitation of the Gospel. Take the Parable of the Great Banquet in Luke 14 as a great example. Many were called (invited) to the feast but few were chosen -- and the "few" who were chosen were compelled to come into the feast (v. 23)! The rest who refused the invitation did not taste the banquet (v. 24)!

Also, service to Christ is not an option! It's mandatory. But I'll quit here because of time constraints. But if you persist in your wilfull ignorance of the scriptures, then I will prove this last assertion tomorrow.

We do read the scripture differently Rufus.

"Many were called (invited) to the feast but few were chosen -- and the "few" who were chosen were compelled
to come into the feast (v. 23)! The rest who refused the invitation did not taste the banquet (v. 24)!"

I read that as a saying the Jews refused the invitation and the Gentiles accepted the invitation.

Here is me thinking that the Jews were invited because they were chosen, silly me.

 

[Genez]

Nonsense! The many who are called in Mat 22:14 speaks to the outward call of the Gospel. The "call" in this passage is not speaking about the inner call of the Holy Spirit. It's talking about the invitation of the Gospel. Take the Parable of the Great Banquet in Luke 14 as a great example. Many were called (invited) to the feast but few were chosen -- and the "few" who were chosen were compelled to come into the feast (v. 23)! The rest who refused the invitation did not taste the banquet (v. 24)!

Also, service to Christ is not an option! It's mandatory. But I'll quit here because of time constraints. But if you persist in your wilfull ignorance of the scriptures, then I will prove this last assertion tomorrow.

Of course its nonsense.....
Its not what you chose to believe.

Imagine that!

 

[Inquisitor]

Nonsense! God doesn't have multiple salvation plans. Besides, Romans is written to Gentile believers, remember? THAT is the CONTEXT! He's not even addressing Jews in Rom 9!

Oh yes Rufus, Paul is addressing the Jews in Roman's chapters nine, ten, and eleven.

Romans 9:1-5
I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying; my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,
that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed,
separated from Christ for the sake of my countrymen, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites,
to whom belongs the adoption as sons and daughters, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law,
the temple service, and the promises; whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according
to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

Paul is not talking about the Gentiles!

“I will call those who were not My people, My people"

You are wrong Rufus.

 

[BillyBob]

I have not swamped the OP with a lot of Scripture quotations,
but hopefully you will recall the NT verses which confirm the following …

Man is doubly incapable of believing in Jesus and the Gospel
1 – Because of the disobedience (sin) of Adam and Eve,
all humans are born with an inherited sin nature,
and are bent on sinning instead of following God (Romans 3:9-18).
Having a saving faith is against their very nature!
2 - All unsaved humans are captive prisoners of Satan,
and are bent on doing whatever he wants them to do (2 Timothy 2:26).
Jesus came to set the captives of Satan free (Luke 4:18).
Having a saving faith is against our enemy’s plans for them,
which, of course, is spending eternity with Satan and his demons in hell.
If the God-worshipping Lydia (Acts 16:14) needs God to give her the necessary
faith to believe in Jesus and the Gospel, surely everyone does also!
Similarly, the “anyones” who believe in Jesus in verses such as John 3:16
are the ones whom God has given saving faith!

Father God elects (chooses) and calls whomever He wishes
Jesus says to the elect, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you ….” (John 16:15).
Surely, here is a strong hint that we should investigate this matter further.
Romans chapter 9 is the most famous proponent of God’s election …
“… that the purpose of election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls.
… So then, it is not of him who wills (to be elected, chosen, and called),
nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.” (Romans 9:11-16)
God gives grace to whomever He chooses, but no one deserves grace (unmerited favor)!
God gives justice to whomever He chooses, and everyone deserves justice!
God wishes that all could be saved, but it is not possible because He insists on His justice.
“You love justice and hate evil.” (Hebrews 1”9)
God is not willing that any (of us) should perish, but that all (of us) should repent …
… the “us” referring to His elect, who are promised salvation.
Christians are called to confess and repent of their on-going sins,
and the blood of Jesus will cleanse them of all their unrighteousness (1 John 1:7-9).

The reason why Father God chooses some, but not others
Father God chooses to elect some people for His great pleasure.
He chooses to elect some to demonstrate to the whole world
His great love, mercy, grace, etc. (Romans 9:23).
He chooses to elect some to be companions for His Son throughout eternity (Scriptural?).
Those not chosen are given justice, which sadly is what they deserve.

Those whom Father God gives to Jesus are guaranteed salvation
This is all about the unconditional security of the born-again believer.
Multitudes of NT verses are God’s promises of salvation given to His elect.
Surely, those of us who are born again should be continually praising God and
thanking Him for choosing us … and for the Holy Spirit sanctifying us unto holiness
… and for Jesus interceding for us before Father God in heaven.

Understanding-god’s-election​

The topic presented in this OP is and will always be debated among fallen men of this world.

John 3:16 For God So Loved the World!............. (1) There are those who think that Christ died and paid the price for the sins of the entire world. Therefore, If we will only turn to Him, confess our sins, and place our trust in Him – then all will be well for us! (2) Then there are those who argue that He has made a choice outside of man himself. That man is incapable of turning to God of his own free will and salvation is by grace alone. This grace is poured out on the people of His choice, those in the WORLD who are among His elect. I fall into the belief that salvation is by grace alone. That there is nothing good in man which would enable him to make a good choice without the work of the Spirit.

However, I must confess that the understanding of His plan often puzzles me!

Are we not to be taught His word – so that we may be brought to believe and place our trust in the finished work of Christ. If so, we certainly need faithful men teach us His word. But some men need more teaching than others. How are we, or can we determine those who need more teaching than others, or is this something to leave in God's hands! After all He does tell us - John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice!.....................

This was a good topic! I would enjoy any thoughts on the above paragraph

 

[Genez]

If man is so depraved that he is completely dead to God?

How was it that the Lord reasoned with Cain?

Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? ​

If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what ​

is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must ​

rule over it.” Genesis 4:6-7​

From the Calvinist perspective...
Why was the Lord being foolish to try to reason with spiritually dead, totally depraved, Cain?

 

[Inquisitor]

Understanding-god’s-election​

The topic presented in this OP is and will always be debated among fallen men of this world.

John 3:16 For God So Loved the World!............. (1) There are those who think that Christ died and paid the price for the sins of the entire world. Therefore, If we will only turn to Him, confess our sins, and place our trust in Him – then all will be well for us! (2) Then there are those who argue that He has made a choice outside of man himself. That man is incapable of turning to God of his own free will and salvation is by grace alone. This grace is poured out on the people of His choice, those in the WORLD who are among His elect. I fall into the belief that salvation is by grace alone. That there is nothing good in man which would enable him to make a good choice without the work of the Spirit.

However, I must confess that the understanding of His plan often puzzles me!

Are we not to be taught His word – so that we may be brought to believe and place our trust in the finished work of Christ. If so, we certainly need faithful men teach us His word. But some men need more teaching than others. How are we, or can we determine those who need more teaching than others, or is this something to leave in God's hands! After all He does tell us - John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice!.....................

This was a good topic! I would enjoy any thoughts on the above paragraph

You stated the following.

"The topic presented in this OP is and will always be debated among fallen men of this world."

You don't want a reply to your post do you Billy Bob?

 

[Inquisitor]

If man is so depraved that he is completely dead to God?

How was it that the Lord reasoned with Cain?

Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? ​

If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what ​

is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must ​

rule over it.” Genesis 4:6-7​

From the Calvinist perspective...
Why was the Lord being foolish to try to reason with spiritually dead, totally depraved, Cain?

Add to that.

Jonah 3:5-6
Then the people of Nineveh believed in God; and they called a fast and put on sackcloth, from the
greatest to the least of them. When the word reached the king of Nineveh, he got up from his throne,
removed his robe from himself, covered himself with sackcloth, and sat on the dust.

It looks as though people can listen and respond.

 

[cv5]

It is often speculated that David took 5 stones one for Goliath and the others for his brothers. When you go back and read about Og of Bashan, the Anakaim and the Rephaim and other places these giants are mentioned.

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/7497.htm

Anyway more or less there was at that time the valley of the Rephaim around Jebus. Could be that David took the head there because that is where the other giants were living. May be he took it there because his brothers were there can only speculate. Anyway I think he took it there because he was looking for a fight with Rephaim and that is where they were.

Anyway when you read of David taking Jebus we also get introuduced to his men of valor and then in latter chapters we read about the death of Goliath's brothers. So I would find that he took the head to Jebus because that is where other giants where and he was maybe looking for his brothers or looking for a further fight with giants and brought the head to provoke them.

Anyway just speculation but not sold it is a contradiction I believe he took it there as the bible reads just does not elaborate as to why so we have to speculate.

David EVENTUALLY took the skull of Goliath to Jerusalem because it was a WAR TROPHY and an artifact proving that God had miraculously delivered him. Along with it being a sort of divine seal of his right to kingship.

This is dead easy folks.

And yes, all of Israel DEFINITELY knew of the reason for the place name of Golgotha.

 

[cv5]

1)Sorry, God has predestined the majority to suffer.

2)Why did God not create heaven with us all in heaven?

1) No. Forgiveness is freely available to all who ask. Someone who does not ask has CHOSEN to pay for their own sins.

2) So that God is justified and glorified when someone makes the CHOICE to hold fast to the promised One. Like Job and Rahab and every other saint.

The false god you preach is NEVER glorified. Because he creates souls evil that CANNOT choose to worship him. Which is Satan's accusation BTW.

 

[Inquisitor]

1) No. Forgiveness is freely available to all who ask. Someone who does not ask has CHOSEN to pay for their own sins.

2) So that God is justified and glorified when someone makes the CHOICE to hold fast to the promised One. Like Job and Rahab and every other saint.

The false god you preach is NEVER glorified. Because he creates souls evil that CANNOT choose to worship him. Which is Satan's accusation BTW.

I don't preach a false God.

I do not preach total depravity.

Nor do I preach a limited atonement.

I believe that anyone that calls on the name of Jesus is saved.

I also believe that if anyone believes in the death and resurrection of Jesus, then they
receive the Holy Spirit. That gift of the Holy Spirit received is God's seal of ownership.

Only boast in the name of Jesus Christ!

 

[Inquisitor]

David EVENTUALLY took the skull of Goliath to Jerusalem because it was a WAR TROPHY and an artifact proving that God had miraculously delivered him. Along with it being a sort of divine seal of his right to kingship.

This is dead easy folks.

And yes, all of Israel DEFINITELY knew of the reason for the place name of Golgotha.

David was not the king when David slew Goliath.

Jerusalem was conquered by David when David was the king of Israel.

The Jebusites occupied Jerusalem and it was impossible for the warrior David, to enter
Jerusalem.

You may need to alter your interpretation of Jewish history.

 

[brightfame52]

@cv5

1) No. Forgiveness is freely available to all who ask. Someone who does not ask has CHOSEN to pay for their own sins.

Thats incorrect, forgiveness is freely given not offered or made available but given to all Gods elect based upon the Death of Christ for their sins Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel[elect], and forgiveness of sins.

Thats part of what constitutes Jesus a Saviour !

 

[cv5]

David was not the king when David slew Goliath.

Jerusalem was conquered by David when David was the king of Israel.

The Jebusites occupied Jerusalem and it was impossible for the warrior David, to enter
Jerusalem.

You may need to alter your interpretation of Jewish history.

David EVENTUALLY.....
In due course of time. LOL.

 

[cv5]

@cv5



Thats incorrect, forgiveness is freely given not offered or made available but given to all Gods elect based upon the Death of Christ for their sins Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel[elect], and forgiveness of sins.

Thats part of what constitutes Jesus a Saviour !

Adam and Eve repented of their own free will, trusted God of their own free will, and asked for mercy of their own free will.
And they got it. In fact they also were gifted with a Kinsman Redeemer Who was to come.

And so it goes from there.

The trial of Genesis 3 debunks the entire Reformed/Calvinite position BTW.
But since the Calvinites are utterly clueless about the truth of that scenario, they persist in their hoaxing.

 

[Cameron143]

Adam and Eve hid from God. When given opportunity to repent, they blamed anyone but themselves. Yet God, in grace, sought them out, provided an atoning sacrifice, provided an acceptable covering, and restored them to Himself.

 

[brightfame52]

Adam and Eve repented of their own free will, trusted God of their own free will, and asked for mercy of their own free will.
And they got it. In fact they also were gifted with a Kinsman Redeemer Who was to come.

And so it goes from there.

The trial of Genesis 3 debunks the entire Reformed/Calvinite position BTW.
But since the Calvinites are utterly clueless about the truth of that scenario, they persist in their hoaxing.

Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel[elect], and forgiveness of sins.

Thats part of what constitutes Jesus a Saviour !

Forgiveness was made for the many by Christ shed blood Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many[The elect] for the remission of sins.

Its not offered to them, its an accomplished fact

 

[dougcho]

I do not preach total depravity.

Then you need to read Romans to begin with.
I'd be happy to send you a NT.

 

[Rufus]

God did not make them to be ignoble purposes.
He used them for ignoble purpose.
God allowed them to continue resisting His molding them.
God did not mash them up and make nothing out of them. Instead...
He used them for bed pans.


God, said... "OK!" You want to be that way?
Here is what I will use you for!

Whatever that means that I bolded above. You waxed incoherent again. "Make them to be ignoble purposes"? Human beings are now purposes?

But he did MAKE out of the SAME lump some pottery for noble purposes and some for ignoble (or common) purposes.

Rom 9:19-21
20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
NIV

And the clay pots had no say in the matter! Connect the dots between these two passages:

Rom 9:11-12
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad — in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls — she was told, "The older will serve the younger."
NIV

And,

Rom 9:15-16
15 For he says to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy
NIV

There's not a thing in this passage that teaches that the one lump of clay had any input into God's plan for them or that they in anyway influenced his plan for them. After all...that one lump of clay was all BAD, CORRUPT, USELESS until HE made the second lump from the first. Then the second lump became good, incorrupt and useful for godly service.

Reading your presuppositions into scripture doesn't change the actual truth of the scriptures. Reading your presuppositions into the Word of God is imposing your lies upon scripture, which is very odd behavior (to say the least) for a professing Christian, especially since God HATES liars!