He did not prove it. He revealed what was.
And, why was Abel not equally corrupt as Cain if we are all born the same?
Understanding God’s election
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And, why was Abel not equally corrupt as Cain if we are all born the same?
Received the "Spirit of adoption", thereby fulfilling the promise of Eph 1:5. Want to borrow my crowbar to help you force scripture
to fit what you want it to say? Ever hear of the law of holes?
All have sinned (RM 3:23) and not sought God (RM 3:11)--until they learn from their mistakes as the prodigal son did to repent (LK 15:11-20) and seek God's forgiveness (MT 7:7). Not sure whether Cain learned to repent.
K
keepingthingsreal
Guest
They never were saved because...wait for it...they have their own free wills. You need some serious help when it comes to the topic of proper biblical exegesis. At my end, I have sought to help you via sound doctrine which you repeatedly reject. For the last time, here is a classic example of the clash between Christ's will and the will of certain people throughout the ages.
Mat 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
If you honestly cannot see that, then it is because you have willfully shut your eyes to it, or because you are willfully ignorant. I am not wasting another second of my time arguing this with you or anybody else.
Then so is his love which motivates that grace! You can't have it both ways here!
But as a believer in that Doctrines of Grace, I don't have that problem; for the bible teaches that neither God's love or his grace is conditioned or contingent upon man's choices. God's love is conditional, for he loves the righteous with familial love -- not the wicked! And his grace is unconditional since it doesn't rely on sinners' choices or desires or the man who runs but relies solely on God's own good pleasure and his purposes. The ground for salvation is never found in man but only in God!
Also, where are there any conditons for man to fulfill in the New Covenant promises in the OT? The New Covenant itself is unconditional and unilateral.
I have wasted so much time trying to show the terrible exegesis and hermeneutics, I will never get it back.
Lesson learned
You're not sure because you don't want to know the truth! You're not sure because by keeping the door open for Cain, this allows you to postulate the salvation of anyone under the sun....including Satan himself, I suppose! Does scripture anywhere speak in positive terms of Cain? (Rhetorical queston!). Of course, it doesn't anymore than scripture anywhere speaks postively about his daddy Adam.
One more time for the slow guy....
But he gives greater grace. Therefore, he says,
God resists the proud,
but gives grace unto the humble.
You are not arguing with me at this point.
READ!
God resists the proud,
but gives grace unto the humble.
You are not arguing with me at this point.
READ!
K
keepingthingsreal
Guest
The only hole that I see here is the one in your theology. Here is what Paul said.
Rom 8:15
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Rom 8:18
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24
For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25
But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
This Spirit of adoption which Christians have received is the same exact firstfruits of the Spirit, and Christians who have it groan within themselves while WAITING FOR THE ADOPTION, to wit, THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODY. In other words, we've currently only received what Paul called elsewhere the earnest of the Spirit, or a down-payment of the Spirit, while we both wait and hope for our adoptions to be completed when we receive glorified bodies at Christ's second coming.
Try not to drop your crowbar on your foot as you realize how ignorant you currently are of this truth.
K
keepingthingsreal
Guest
I hear you, and I truly do need to step away from this time-consuming and fruitless discussion. For whatever it is worth, I am happy that you know the truth.I have wasted so much time trying to show the terrible exegesis and hermeneutics, I will never get it back.
Lesson learned
But when you free willers claim that salvation is entirely up to man -- THEN that becomes the game-changer, since man becomes the ultimate and final arbiter of his eternal destination. And this in turn means that man gets something to boast about. He gets to share in God's glory -- in fact MORE than share in glory since God can only react to man's choices. God in essence and at the very best can only be a secondary cause to man's salvation! God is in stuck mode! He can't make a move until all self-sufficient man does! Man's will is the only sufficient and absolutely cause of his salvation. Man is the pilot, God takes up his subordinate position in the co-pilot's seat.
You can become more of it. After sin, man started doing evil. Eventually, his imagination became evil continually.
You're like the God-hating Pharisees who always sought the approval of men rather than of God. You rejoice in their approval rather than with the truth (1Cor 13:6), clearly indicating a lack of biblical love on your part. As for me, I'd much prefer to be in the "lions' den" of my enemies and enemies of the Cross of Christ, facing their reproach and wrath while remaining true to my Lord and to his Truth.
So...if the elect are currently not [adopted] sons and daughters of Christ, then whose children are we presently?
I hope you folks have figured out that you are talking about two different uses or applications of the word adoption by Paul.
When he revealed his true colors through his sin, he proved what he was! He proved how he was no match for the evil one.
I am not sure, because GN 4:6-7 & 15-16 keeps the door open for him.
You want to close the door so you can postulate the condemnation of everyone but yourself and maybe me by a hateful God, who might as well be Satan himself as far as souls given no opportunity to be saved are concerned.
They received spiritual adoption by the promise of Eph 1:5. Therefore, they didn't, as you said, " got in by believing the gospel of salvation, and that did not occur before the foundation of the world." - instead, they "got in" solely by God's promise, made before the foundation of the world. That promise was the adoption as children by Jesus Christ unto Himself - that He had predestinated the "us" to it. Is says NOTHING whatsoever about ANYTHING being required from those He adopts - it is all by God's promise alone. Here read the verse again closely. Do you see "adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself"? Where in it do you find the promise was the redemption of the body or dependent upon anything we might have to do? Now I do realize that the bodies of those saved will be redeemed, but that is NOT what this verse is addressing. You need to actually read and understand the verses in question to be able to discuss them.
[Eph 1:5 KJV] 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
K
keepingthingsreal
Guest
The answer to your question is found in the part of this portion of scripture which I highlighted in red.
Rom 8:15
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Rom 8:18
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24
For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25
But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
As John said in his first epistle:
1Jo 3:1
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jo 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Christians are now the sons of God, BUT it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
As I recently explained, Christians have currently received the Spirit of adoption, but their adoptions are not yet complete, nor will they be, until Christ's second coming when the awaited and hoped for adoption, or the redemption of their bodies, is complete. This is basically the same thing that John said. In other words, although we are presently accounted as being sons (and daughters) of God, we will not see him as he is, or we will not receive glorified bodies like his, or our adoptions will not be complete, until he appears a second time.
Your confusion seems to be directly linked to your misunderstanding of the word adoption when used in scripture. In other words, it does not carry the same meaning that it carries in our day and age. Instead, it literally means "to place as an adult son." Again, it pertained in Paul's day to a coming-of-age ceremony, and part of that ceremony was the donning of a new outer garment. Christians will symbolically get new outer garments when mortality is swallowed up of immortality or when they receive their glorified bodies at Christ's second coming. This is the only thing that Christians, according to scripture, have been predestinated to. All of the nonsense that Calvin and his beguiled followers have attached to the word predestinated are non-biblical. This is the truth; like it or not.