And oh brother how the Calvintes assiduously tip-toe around that land mine!
Right @Cameron143 ?
I mean thats ground zero right?
Understanding God’s election
- Thread starter dougcho
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Right @Cameron143 ?
I mean thats ground zero right?
No it's not. I just showed you why. You want it to be so badly that you have no problem deliberately and dishonesty misrepresenting both scripture and others.
God's sovereignty gets derided in these discussions... is His omniscience being downgraded as well???
You misrepresented me and my beliefs. So many have presented such mangled versions of what I believe it's ridiculous. Absolute falsehoods again and again. But according to them they understand what I believe. They don't even bother to ask. They just present lie after lie after lie.
Every single time!
Like @Kroogz stated I think @ForestGreenCook is one of the few who acknowledges it.
I think most of this thread has been trying to get people to admit the bitter pill on the menu!!
This thread would be done if they owned up to it.
I don't have a problem with those who believe differently from me. This is to be expected. But those who deliberately misrepresent another's positions are simply dishonest.
K
keepingthingsreal
Guest
Again, you are missing the IN CHRIST part.
By way of analogy, consider Noah's ark. The wickedness of men was great in those days, and God, in his foreknowledge, was not caught unaware of the same. Instead, he foreknew, from before the foundation of the world, that it would eventually be so. At that time, God's Spirit was not only striving with men, but we also know that Noah was a preacher of righteousness. In other words, God was actively seeking, via his Spirit and the preaching of righteousness, to save everybody. Furthermore, God provided a "chosen" or "elected" means of escape, which he foreknew from before the foundation of the world, or he chose Noah's Ark. In his foreknowledge, he knew who would favorably respond to the promptings of his Spirit and the preaching of righteousness, and he also foreknew who would unfavorably reject the same, but he still genuinely strove with everybody. Those who got on the Ark did so of their own freewill choices, and those who did not board the Ark chose not to of their own freewill choices. With these things in mind, we could rightfully say that God foreknew who was going to be found "in the Ark" before the foundation of the world, and, similarly, God foreknew who was going to be found IN CHRIST before the foundation of the world. This does not mean that God chose who was going to be in either the Ark or Christ, but simply that he foreknew who would be.
I honestly cannot believe that we even have to have such a discussion. Can I tell you, plainly, what this whole discussion reminds me of?
Before I got saved, I spent some time at the racetrack. One night, a man placed a $100 bill on the floor with a hidden invisible wire attached to it. He then stood there for about an hour while sadistically and gleefully watching people bend over hastily to grab the $100 dollar bill, only to have it snatched away from their grasp at the last second. I actually saw one man go for it with such fervor that he did a somersault on his head before crashing his body onto the floor as the $100 bill was snatched away from his outreaching grasp at the last second.
This is Calvin's "god."
He puts the gift of salvation before certain unsaved people via the preaching of the gospel, and then he sadistically and gleefully pulls it away from their grasp because they never really had a chance to lay hold of it. Calvin's "god" is not the God of the Bible, and he is certainly not my "god." I REPUDIATE Calvin's "god" with every fiber of my being.
I’m not really getting that from anyone here honestly I’m not really following everything everyone is saying but enjoy your day of work sister you are a blessing !!
Yea it’s happening on both sides because they aren’t understanding what the other people are saying
Totally agree.
Seeing as we have by now not wrapped up this thread, the question arises: why not?
Truly, the UNSPOKEN yet strongly implied answer is grim indeed.
K
keepingthingsreal
Guest
Seriously? And what are those "actions?" To repent and believe. Same as with us today. Are you being difficult on purpose, or do you genuinely not understand these simple truths?
K
keepingthingsreal
Guest
How is God's sovereignty allegedly getting derided here?
God, in his sovereignty, gave man the right to freely choose.
It really is that simple, and if anybody is deriding God's sovereignty, then it the Calvinists who deny this reality.
Thank you again Zeke but I find it very odd that you're not getting that from anyone here because free will... you know, that false doctrine of free will, is at the heart of everything they argue to deny everything Scripture says about the natural man. And there are quite a few here doing it so I'm not sure how you can miss it.
K
keepingthingsreal
Guest
Not understanding it? How about not even considering it? I just posted this in "Life-Bits" a couple of days ago.
No your argument does not overcome the ultimate logical conclusion of regeneration (God given only to some) that some have been predestined to not be regenerated by God's sovereign choice.
I asked if it was... are you saying it isn't? Oh I see , you are saying it is the people you disagree with who do this. Is there any point in me asking you questions when you did not answer any of mine that I put to you earlier ... and now you are asking me questions ... I don't see this as a fair way to have any kind of good faith dialogue.
K
keepingthingsreal
Guest
Yes, I am saying that God's sovereignty is not being derided here by non-Calvinists. Do you know what the differences between a sovereign and a dictator are? Are people allowed to vote (make choices) in a sovereignty?
What questions did you put to me earlier? I have honestly tried to answer ever question posed to me here (I still owe Cameron one answer), so if I truly did not answer a question that you posed to me, then that was not on purpose. Can you link me to it? I have been bombarded with notifications since I jumped back into this conversation, and I am honestly trying to keep up with them all.
This really is how I feel too
“I honestly cannot believe that we even have to have such a discussion.”
“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”
Hebrews 13:8 KJV
to know him we need to start here
“The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;”
Mark 1:1 KJV
“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.”
1 John 5:20-21 KJV
to believe in him we need to look here to the witnesses he sent out to reveal him to all
“And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: but these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”
John 20:30-31
“As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
( nt of the Bible is thier word through which we believe )
that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.”
John 17:18, 20-21
faith comes from there the message of the gospel creates it in the hearts of believers
To have faith we have to listen here
“But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?
and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:8-17 KJV
even Isaiah was proclaiming faith in Christ then to them beforehand
“Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? ….Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way;
and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”
Isaiah 53:1, 4-6 KJV
Still after he came they preached repentance and faith in him through Gods word
“For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not;
but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.”
1 Peter 2:21-25 KJV
Only 1 side is deliberately misrepresenting.
There is much misunderstanding of others. That's normal. People are at different levels of knowledge, and possess bias. That's not what I'm referring to. I'm talking about those who understand exactly what you are saying and purposefully distort it.