I'll tell you once I have a working definition from another poster. I'm trying not to influence the terms we use in arguing whether freewill exists.
Understanding God’s election
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K
keepingthingsreal
Guest
Why do you need to obtain a working definition of it from another poster? I am simply asking how you would describe it so that I might understand what your position is. I honestly do not know who believes what because all I saw was a bunch of bickering, and that turned me off in a hurry.
I understand. And I'm happy to share it with you, but when definitions aren't established, people begin talking apples and oranges. So we're on the same page, I'm trying to get a common understanding of freewill. I can almost assure you that our definitions will be different and part of the reason will be an assumption about God that is assumed and not scriptural.
he did dispense his gift of salvation to those he chose to this is how
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16
not everyone accepts it though and we see the result also for them in that verse which isnt a pleasant thought. Since all mankind is condemned to die eventually , God has offered all mankind mercy and grace to be saved on the condition of belief of what the lord Jesus has done for us in the shedding of his precious life on the cross at Calvary and also what he has said to us on the gospel regarding salvation.
“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
1 Timothy 2:3-4 KJV
“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;”
Titus 2:11-12 KJV
“and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
1 John 2:2 KJV
everyone has an atonement jesus purchased all humanity in his death for our sins and it calls to us all to come
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”
John 12:32-33 KJV
“I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
Luke 5:32 KJV
“for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”
Romans 3:23 KJV
“This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.”
1 Timothy 1:15-16 KJV
If we won’t turn to God in repentance and believe because of the message of the gospel of Jesus his son there’s nothing left To save us but God doesn’t force us to believe or disbelieve he sent a message that can save to all sinners in tbe world all creation
Wow.
That makes completely sense.
God creates his "elected" supernaturally all the while creating other people who were never going to be elected to fill in the gaps and make life interesting I guess?
I think it is back to the drawing board for you .... not computing with how the word elect is used in scripture I believe @Inquisitor did a good post on it.
Nothing makes sense on this thread.
God creates the vast majority of people so that He can cast them into the lake of fire?
They can suffer through life on this planet without hope, without God.
Then they can suffer for eternity.
I don't believe anyone would tolerate that kind of interpretation, a God without love.
The truth is that no one fully understands how God works His plan in Christ.
A profound mystery!
We have difficulty defining the terms let alone reading the scripture properly.
So the debate most often descends into name calling.
Sad but true.
@Pilgrimshope I found this post of mine from five years ago.
That would mean that God punishes people for not making a choice that was never offered to them in the first place. I do not see that as being consistent with His loving, just, and merciful character. At face value, some verses seem to suggest that is the case (as per the question Paul puts forth, to which you alluded [not you! ha this post was to someone else]), which Calvinists argue for, along with verses like Proverbs 16:4~
KJV: “The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.”
NIV: “The LORD works out everything for his own ends–even the wicked for a day of disaster.”
NLT: “The LORD has made everything for his own purposes, even the wicked for a day of disaster.”
ESV: “The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.”
Juxtapositioned against Psalm 145:9 “The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.”
And
1 John 2:2
Christ “is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world
Romans 5:18:
John 12:32:
Titus 2:11:
Hebrews 2:9:
Joel 2:28, 32:
Revelation 22:17:
1 Timothy 2:3-6
John 12:32 "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
Yes, God makes it possible. No, I am not a universalist
That would mean that God punishes people for not making a choice that was never offered to them in the first place. I do not see that as being consistent with His loving, just, and merciful character. At face value, some verses seem to suggest that is the case (as per the question Paul puts forth, to which you alluded [not you! ha this post was to someone else]), which Calvinists argue for, along with verses like Proverbs 16:4~
KJV: “The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.”
NIV: “The LORD works out everything for his own ends–even the wicked for a day of disaster.”
NLT: “The LORD has made everything for his own purposes, even the wicked for a day of disaster.”
ESV: “The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.”
Juxtapositioned against Psalm 145:9 “The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.”
And
1 John 2:2
Christ “is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world
Romans 5:18:
“Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the
result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men”
Romans 11:32: “For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all”John 12:32:
“For Christ’ love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all…”
Titus 2:11:
“For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men…”
Hebrews 2:9:
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor
because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone”
It seems contradictory, unless you look at the root of the Hebrew word translated about various as “everything for its purpose”, “all things for himself”, and “everything for his own”. None of these translations capture the meaning of the Hebrew (ma’aneh). The literal translation of the word ma’aneh is “give an answer to” or “response”. So the phrase “all things for himself” should read “all things to give an answer to himself” or “all things to give a response to himself”. In other words, everyone is responsible for what they do and will be called into account, even the wicked for the day of distress.Joel 2:28, 32:
“I will pour out my Spirit on all people… And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved”
Revelation 22:17:
The Spirit and the bride say, ‘Come!’ And let him who hears say, ‘Come!’ Whoever is
thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of water of life”
1 Timothy 2:3-6
“This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men…”
John 12:32 "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
Yes, God makes it possible. No, I am not a universalist
K
keepingthingsreal
Guest
Cameron...? Cameron...? I know that you like limericks. Don't make me use one. Too late.
Please tell me what you think free will is
I want your definition not his
Can we all freely choose
Our own God/god win or lose
Is that not what the Bible teaches
Jos 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
I need to head out for a bit. I will check back later.
Not until you specify which of the twelve sons was chosen, elect, spiritual.
If say Judah was elect does that mean the other sons were reprobate?
If the 12 sons were spiritual why were their offspring not elect?
“Do you mean after the Holy Spirit of God has worked in us?”
after we hear the gospel about Jesus dying for our sins that is how the holy spirit works on people to “draw “them to him. Because he died for us when we hear that message that’s the Holy Ghost speaking to the heart of a sinner
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”
John 12:32-33 KJV
But you guys seem to be saying he’s gonna do some other stuff to draw only certain folks to him ? To be clear again I’m saying he already did it and then sent the message out to all people for salvation .
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
what im saying is simple It doesn’t say now God will decide which of you can believe and which can’t , he said preach the gospel to everyone and whoever believes and responds will be saved whoever doesn’t believe will be damned .
It’s a message from the holt ghost God works through his word
“And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.”
Genesis 1:3 KJV
There’s no other next thing is my point the holt ghost is Jesus spirit he’s already done his work for sinners . It’s the gospel he then sent to everyone .
i believe our part is this
“Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.”
James 1:21-22 KJV
The Holy Ghost is who spoke the words of the Bible and is how God does his work on someone’s mind and heart through the gospel message of Jesus
You asked me were they elect and spiritual. I took spiritual to mean saved. If that's what you mean, then all.
Incorrect Rufus, no one has a perfect free will.
Surely you noticed how many times the apostles failed at the simplest of things.
Everyone is given over to disobedience and that includes the church through history.
Not one person is ever righteous and not even close.
So all their offspring were spiritual?
So when did God create the reprobate offspring and destroy them at Mt Sinai?
We don't twist anything. It is YOU who perverts God's justice because you obviously think that all mankind is worthy of God's salvation. Soo....if God doesn't make salvation possible for all then that makes him many nasty things in your world. Thankfully, I don't live in your world, nor would I ever want to!