Understanding God’s election

[HeIsHere]

pfs...God never does anything on a whim.
pfs...as the gospel is God's general means of salvation, no Christian should neglect the great commission nor should any hearer neglect its call.

Tell me how does God decide who to regenerate? Why did you get picked and not Mr. Inability down the way?

People cannot "hear" in you view unless they are regenerated so what difference does it make if the hearer neglects.

What I see you trying to straddle the lanes a little bit, maybe you are recognizing how tragic and UN-biblical this doctrine of selection is?

 

[Magenta]

Tell me how does God decide who to regenerate? Why did you get picked and not Mr. Inability down the way?

People cannot "hear" in you view unless they are regenerated so what difference does it make if the hearer neglects.

What I see you trying to straddle the lanes a little bit, maybe you are recognizing how tragic and UN-biblical this doctrine of selection is?

Scripture says in the words of Jesus, "My sheep hear my voice."

Is this something else you reject and deny?

Is this something else you will claim is tragic and un-Biblical and makes God unfair?

You present yourself as someone who has heard.

Did you circumcise your own ears?

Do you believe you circumcised your own heart?

Scripture PLAINLY states: it is not according to man's desire (as Scripture plainly says) or by our effort
(as Scripture plainly says) or by our will (as Scripture plainly says) but by the desire and will of God
(as Scripture plainly says), due to His great love for us, His loving kindness, His mercy, etc, etc.

More tragedy???

 

[Rufus]

David was born a sinner.
David was not born evil.

Sinners can get saved....

And what is a sinner if not evil!? Sinners are inherently good, righteous, holy people, are they?

 

[Magenta]

And what is a sinner if not evil!? Sinners are inherently good, righteous, holy people, are they?

Point 1: Not according to some here who say man is not that bad.

Point 2: That is essentially what they say because they believe it true of themselves
regardless of the fact that it directly contradicts what Scripture has to say on the matter.

It logically follows that their error is grounded in their pride of life.

Then they elevate what they think above what Scripture actually says and pretend it is truth while at the same time acting all outraged at how anyone who says otherwise maligns the character of God while they complain about how unfair He is..

 

[Genez]

Regeneration must come before belief due to the spiritual condition of fallen man. How can a blind man see the physical kingdom before him?.

Not regeneration. But a phase of God's influence that precedes regeneration.
GRACE must precede regeneration.
Grace enables to enter into regeneration!
That is why we must be saved by GRACE!
Not, saved by regeneration!

While drawing a person, grace places a soul in a semi-regeneration state of being.
But, not regeneration!

Grace takes man's flesh (our source of depravity) that blinds a man's soul, and forces the effects of the flesh over the soul to momentarily cease!

Then, when God's grace is working on the one being drawn by God? That soul is momentarily made free by grace of the depravity that ruled over that soul; and that soul was made able (while under grace) to decide what it wants to believe and accept.
It's with the soul, we believe! Or.. reject!

That is why it says we have been saved by regeneration? NO! Saved by grace!

The same principle works after regeneration. But with regeneration God does not momentarily grant grace, as when being drawn.
We now have potentially continuous access to walk as God requires to please Him!

​

That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who ​

do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. ​

For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things ​

of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. Rom 8:4-5​

The Grace given us during God drawing us is a semi state, which is regeneration-like. It's to be given for moments of decision about what God is presenting us in our minds. But, it was not regeneration itself.
For with regeneration, we at any moment can choose to walk in grace by utilizing 1 John 1:9 when we detect we had been walking in the flesh!

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to ​

cleanse us from all unrighteousness. ​

Grace and peace ...........

 

[Genez]

And what is a sinner if not evil!? Sinners are inherently good, righteous, holy people, are they?

Sin is simply following fleshly impulses contrary to righteous action.

An example of Evil?
Creating lies (false doctrine) that deny any wrong doing, which opens the door for a license to walk in sin.
Evil denies truth that exposes sin.
Sin simply walks contrary to the right way without knowing it.

 

[JohnDB]

Scripture says in the words of Jesus, "My sheep hear my voice."

Is this something else you reject and deny?

Is this something else you will claim is tragic and un-Biblical and makes God unfair?

You present yourself as someone who has heard.

Did you circumcise your own ears?

Do you believe you circumcised your own heart?

Scripture PLAINLY states: it is not according to man's desire (as Scripture plainly says) or by our effort
(as Scripture plainly says) or by our will (as Scripture plainly says) but by the desire and will of God
(as Scripture plainly says), due to His great love for us, His loving kindness, His mercy, etc, etc.

More tragedy???

Sheep KNOW the Shepherds voice because He is constantly singing and talking to the sheep. He never stops. That's how the sheep know where and when to go.
Any voice other than the Sheherd's causes fear among the sheep. They don't react because it's not the Shepherds voice.

 

[Rufus]

Being DRAGGED in...

I once heard a Calvinist pastor at his own church say it openly.
Not only that. Someone here recently said the same thing.

But even if that were so, God "dragging" them into the kingdom would still be a kind, compassionate, merciful act since all sinners are utterly self-deceived, making them helplessly self-destructive unknown to themselves! God mercifully saves sinners from THEMSELVES! What wouldn't be merciful and compassionate of God is if he left these self-deceived, self-destructive, helpless sinners to stew in their own evil devices.

P.S. Maybe that pastor said what you claim due to the Parable of the Banquet (Lk 14:23). The Gr. word anangkason (Strong's 315) rendered "compel" is a very strong word denoting to compel, to constrain. The NIV renders the passage: "make them come in". It was a NECESSARY thing the host's servants were to do for the benefit of those being invited.

 

[Rufus]

Sin is simply following fleshly impulses contrary to righteous action.

An example of Evil?
Creating lies (false doctrine) that deny any wrong doing, which opens the door for a license to walk in sin.
Evil denies truth that exposes sin.
Sin simply walks contrary to the right way without knowing it.

So, sin has a mind of its own? Sin knows and doesn't know things? And sin by "following fleshly impulses" is a good thing or evil thing?

 

[Rufus]

Sheep KNOW the Shepherds voice because He is constantly singing and talking to the sheep. He never stops. That's how the sheep know where and when to go.
Any voice other than the Sheherd's causes fear among the sheep. They don't react because it's not the Shepherds voice.

What about the "goats"? Do they "KNOW the Shepherd's voice", as well?

 

[Magenta]

Sheep KNOW the Shepherds voice because He is constantly singing and talking to the sheep.
He never stops. That's how the sheep know where and when to go. Any voice other than the
Sheherd's causes fear among the sheep. They don't react because it's not the Shepherds voice.

God opened my ears so I could hear, He opened my eyes so I could see, before that the gospel message
was foolishness to me... some act as if this is not true of any natural man, they deny it is what Scripture
teaches of the natural man, they deny that good does not exist in the flesh, which describes the natural
man, they believe he can from his stony heart and hostile mind love God while being a slave to sin,
suppressing the truth in unrighteousness, captive to the will of the devil. This is all based and rooted in
their adherence to a false doctrine that has no grounding in Scripture, and they completely misunderstand
and then misrepresent what is said by those who promote what Scripture actually says. Jesus laid aside
His human will to do the will of the Father. Some think the natural man can do that with no help from God.

 

[Rufus]

They should act like they do then.

The way some think here?
I seriously doubt that they understand that much...

Someone said that we are all born EVIL.
Not, born sinners.

Evidently you need to sit down and explain things to him then?

Here is what he is missing:

Believing in false doctrine is evil.
Believing in a lie against the truth is walking in evil.

Believers can fall into evil.
But Jesus did not die for evil.
Jesus died for sins only.
That is why not all believers will be welcomed with great reward and honor from God.
But... they remain saved if they believed in Jesus Christ.

Jesus did not die for EVIL.
Jesus died for every baby's sins....

Jesus died to eradicate evil. Don't you know that EVIL-doers will be condemned (Jn 5:29) in the same way all unrepentant sinners will be?

And where is your biblical proof that Jesus died for all baby's sins?

 

[HeIsHere]

It may be for some and not others.

Yes His will in you view it morally ambivalent, you focus on the omnipotence at the neglect of God's moral attributes and I could show you why but I am learning it is to no avail.

This is what Jesus is teaching, and this is the point of Paul in 1 Corinthians 2:14.

The penultimate verse ... or is the verse of last resort?

God’s sufficient call of the gospel is to and for every person (1 Cor 1:18–21)

I already explained this multiple times ... this does not teach that man is born morally incapable of responding to the illuminating Gospel message, it does state the person has to respond to the Gospel call not by human wisdom........ but rather must trusting God’s wisdom conveyed in HIS revelation!!!!

See one has to choose, one has to be persuaded.

Full stop, you have no case for your inability to respond positively from birth, none!

Being a slave to sin and the endless list once again does not mean a person is unable to respond positively to the illuminating truth of the Gospel message.

 

[Magenta]

Furthermore, Scripture explicitly states that the natural man is incapable of obeying God.
But to suggest that God acts unilaterally is anathema to their false doctrine. They think
that to even hint at such a thing makes God an unjust tyrant who kidnaps people
against their will. Hmmm, you know what? If God had to kidnap me against my will
so that I could come to believe in the gospel and His plan for my salvation and learn
to love Him then I am all for it, but I do not believe that is what happened even
though that is what others try to make anyone who will listen to them believe.
Yeah, no. When God circumcised my heart and opened my eyes and unstopped my ears
I could hear believe and obey that which I was incapable of hearing and believing and
obeying beforehand, I was finally able to choose rightly in accordance with God's will.
Scripture does actually teach this, but you won't hear it from free willers who promote
falsehoods in place of what Scripture explicitly says. @JohnDB and anyone with ears to hear.

 

[Cameron143]

Tell me how does God decide who to regenerate? Why did you get picked and not Mr. Inability down the way?

People cannot "hear" in you view unless they are regenerated so what difference does it make if the hearer neglects.

What I see you trying to straddle the lanes a little bit, maybe you are recognizing how tragic and UN-biblical this doctrine of selection is?

Your questions are legitimate, but your conclusion is wrong. Let's go in order:
1. God always decides after the pleasure of His own will. That is, God decides not out of obligation; rather, He makes decisions based on what produces His desired end. Some verses that teach this are Isaiah 46:10, Psalm 115:3 and 135:6, Ephesians 1:5 and 1:11.
So why He chose me, or you, or anyone else is understood by these verses.
2. Not responding to any command of God is wrong, regardless of the condition of man. Is it okay to commit murder in an unregenerate state? Why is it okay not to call upon the name of the Lord?
3. I'm not straddling anything. Given the estate of fallen man, if God didn't elect, not select, then no one would be saved.

Perhaps you need to understand election better. It is not selection as you suggest. Selection infers making a choice between all that is available. Election means creating a people for an express purpose.

 

[Cameron143]

Not regeneration. But a phase of God's influence that precedes regeneration.
GRACE must precede regeneration.
Grace enables to enter into regeneration!
That is why we must be saved by GRACE!
Not, saved by regeneration!

While drawing a person, grace places a soul in a semi-regeneration state of being.
But, not regeneration!

Grace takes man's flesh (our source of depravity) that blinds a man's soul, and forces the effects of the flesh over the soul to momentarily cease!

Then, when God's grace is working on the one being drawn by God? That soul is momentarily made free by grace of the depravity that ruled over that soul; and that soul was made able (while under grace) to decide what it wants to believe and accept.
It's with the soul, we believe! Or.. reject!

That is why it says we have been saved by regeneration? NO! Saved by grace!

The same principle works after regeneration. But with regeneration God does not momentarily grant grace, as when being drawn.
We now have potentially continuous access to walk as God requires to please Him!

​

That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who ​

do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. ​

For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things ​

of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. Rom 8:4-5​

The Grace given us during God drawing us is a semi state, which is regeneration-like. It's to be given for moments of decision about what God is presenting us in our minds. But, it was not regeneration itself.
For with regeneration, we at any moment can choose to walk in grace by utilizing 1 John 1:9 when we detect we had been walking in the flesh!

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to ​

cleanse us from all unrighteousness. ​

Grace and peace ...........

This is gobblygook. Regeneration is what makes the grace of God apparent.

 

[Rufus]

Keep going down this path and you will have a morally ambivalent god because if God provides all this then He fails some of the time or He does not act for everyone, correct?

But you will not admit to this will you?

God, yes the One True God conditions salvation upon personal belief a personal act of trust in God's gift offering upon hearing the Good News!!

And while I am at it regeneration before belief is not established in scripture anywhere.

Nonsense! See the dialogue in John 3 between Nicodemus and Jesus in which Jesus told the Pharisee that something must happen to him. Also, note carefully Jn 11:26 wherein life is a prerequisite to believing. Nicodemus would not be able to "see" the kingdom of God until AFTER he was born again. And there is very good reason to believe that Jesus was (once again) personifying the kingdom, as he often did. Jesus often personified the Kingdom in himself, and that is what he was doing with Nicodemus, since he did not know Jesus' true identity. In other words, Jesus was actually telling Nicodemus that he would not be able to understand who He was until he was born from above.

 

[Rufus]

This is gobblygook. Regeneration is what makes the grace of God apparent.

Or...Regeneration is God's grace in action! God doesn't merely "wish" that people would become regenerated; He actually makes it happen!

 

[Cameron143]

Yes His will in you view it morally ambivalent, you focus on the omnipotence at the neglect of God's moral attributes and I could show you why but I am learning it is to no avail.



The penultimate verse ... or is the verse of last resort?

God’s sufficient call of the gospel is to and for every person (1 Cor 1:18–21)

I already explained this multiple times ... this does not teach that man is born morally incapable of responding to the illuminating Gospel message, it does state the person has to respond to the Gospel call not by human wisdom........ but rather must trusting God’s wisdom conveyed in HIS revelation!!!!

See one has to choose, one has to be persuaded.

Full stop, you have no case for your inability to respond positively from birth, none!

Being a slave to sin and the endless list once again does not mean a person is unable to respond positively to the illuminating truth of the Gospel message.

One is persuaded...that is what faith is...the persuasion by the Spirit of the revelation of God. Otherwise, it's foolishness.

 

[Cranberry]

It is good to hear that plenty of Calvinists/Augustinians have reformed. I hope their reformation aligns with Luther and Paul.
(I was raised as a "P" Calvinist or OSAS Baptist, but learning from Paul taught me to know better :^)

Raeding this thread over time a question made me curious of others thoughts here.

Do you find it _____________fill in that blank, that we all call ourselves Jesus Christ Christians. And yet we follow or are members of groups that are named after other men? Those who define Christ and his teachings their way? Which then divides us.