Understanding God’s election
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What Biblical assumptions?
Here is a simple question Rufus.
Who is Paul speaking to in these verses from Romans 7, shown below?
Romans 7:1
Or do you not know, brothers and sisters for I am speaking to those who know the Law.
Romans 7:6
But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound,
so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
Then explain the verse below.
Romans 1:13
I do not want you to be unaware, brothers and sisters, that often I have planned to come to you,
so that I may obtain some fruit among you also just as among the rest of the Gentiles.
Rufus are you saying that Paul is never addressing the Jews in Romans?
If Paul is directly addressing the Jews in Romans how come he did not state that
in the introduction?
Who do you think the "we" and "us" are in Rom 5:8-10?
The Jews because that's who Paul is talking to.
Here is what Paul stated in Romans 5.
Romans 5:5
For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were brought to light by the Law.
Only the Jews had the Mosaic law, Rufus.
Romans 5:8
But sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind;
for apart from the Law sin is dead.
You and I were never under the law.
We are not descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
We are not circumcised.
We were not in covenant to obey the book of the law.
Gentiles are not and never were under the Mosaic law.
So you can be absolutely Paul is talking to his bothers and sisters, the Jews.
No. Only those whom God saves in the womb, are not of the wicked.
[Psa 51:5 KJV]
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
[Isa 48:8 KJV]
8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time [that] thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.
Everyone is under law until saved.
[Rom 2:14 KJV]
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Are they saved before they believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ?
Yes, God can do that to whom He has so chosen for it. He can make anyone believe in Jesus, even while in the womb, because it happens by the Holy Spirit, not by man.
It is the Holy Spirit who does that to everyone who becomes saved. It is not by man.
You contradicted yourself.
In Romans, the phrase 'the law' is referring to Mosaic law.
The phrase 'the law' is mentioned roughly fifty times.
Gentiles have nothing to do with the written law.
No, sin is CHOOSING evil/death/curse rather than good/life/blessing (DT 30:19) in OT terms, and a snake or scorpion rather than a fish or egg in NT terms (LK 11:11-13).
Saved before the atonement and saved after the atonement?
They were never really sinners because they had the Holy Spirit?
The alternative David made known after his infant son died soon after birth... 2 Samuel 12:19-23
When David saw his servants whispering, he knew that the baby was dead.
So he asked them, “Is the baby dead?”
They answered, “Yes, he is dead.”
Then David got up from the floor, washed himself, put lotions on, and changed his clothes.
Then he went into the Lord’s house to worship. After that, he went home and asked for something
to eat. His servants gave him some food, and he ate.
David’s servants said to him, “Why are you doing this? When the baby was still alive, you fasted
and you cried. Now that the baby is dead, you get up and eat food.”
David said, “While the baby was still alive, I fasted, and I cried. I thought, ‘Who knows?
Maybe the Lord will feel sorry for me and let the baby live.’ But now that the baby is dead,
why should I fast? I can’t bring him back to life.
Someday I will go to him, but he cannot come back to me.”
David was surely going to heaven!
To heaven to meet the one who was his infant son who died!
............
Being under law is being under law. Observe the "For" in verse 14. It continues verse 12.
[Rom 2:12-14 KJV]
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
God can, and does, save certain babies from the womb, but not all babies. That was also true with
David's infant son
[Psa 22:10 KJV] 10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou [art] my God from my mother's belly.
Absolutely agree and yes this is indeed a proof text for the certain salvation of all babies and children, among other passages.
I don't follow your point. God has the power to save anyone He wishes to save at any time He decides to,
in the womb or born. Salvation is by God, not man.
to me it’s just lack of understanding the biblical story from genesis to Malachi and maybe even realizing it tells a very coherent story that anyone can read and understand .
This is aroind 700 bc
“The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there were any that did understand, And seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: There is none that doeth good, no, not one.”
Psalm 14:2-3 KJV
before that there was a relationship between God and mankind still through Moses law
“And the people served the LORD all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that outlived Joshua, who had seen all the great works of the LORD, that he did for Israel. And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being an hundred and ten years old. And also all that generation were gathered unto their fathers: and there arose another generation after them, which knew not the LORD, nor yet the works which he had done for Israel. And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim: and they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods, of the gods of the people that were round about them, and bowed themselves unto them, and provoked the LORD to anger. And they forsook the LORD, and served Baal and Ashtaroth. And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel, and he delivered them into the hands of spoilers that spoiled them, and he sold them into the hands of their enemies round about, so that they could not any longer stand before their enemies. Whithersoever they went out, the hand of the LORD was against them for evil, as the LORD had said, and as the LORD had sworn unto them: and they were greatly distressed. Nevertheless the LORD raised up judges, which delivered them out of the hand of those that spoiled them. And yet they would not hearken unto their judges, but they went a whoring after other gods, and bowed themselves unto them: they turned quickly out of the way which their fathers walked in, obeying the commandments of the LORD; but they did not so. And when the LORD raised them up judges, then the LORD was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented the LORD because of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them. And it came to pass, when the judge was dead, that they returned, and corrupted themselves more than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them, and to bow down unto them; they ceased not from their own doings, nor from their stubborn way. And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and he said, Because that this people hath transgressed my covenant which I commanded their fathers, and have not hearkened unto my voice; I also will not henceforth drive out any from before them of the nations which Joshua left when he died: that through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk therein, as their fathers did keep it, or not. Therefore the LORD left those nations, without driving them out hastily; neither delivered he them into the hand of Joshua.”
Judges 2:7-8, 10-23 KJV
A lot happened before Jesus became flesh and it actually shaped the nt is the thing And before Moses law there was faith for a relationship with God like Enoch , Noah , Abraham Isaac and Jacob all walked by. . We are hoping to join those saints and men of faith in Gods kingdom
“And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.”
Matthew 8:11-13 KJV
I think as long as people believe they don’t have the ability to choose good or evil , or choose the gospel I don’t think they could technically choose it ever which seems helpless
i suspect a lot of times we don’t fully understand one another or thier intent and so we sort of misconstrue each others idea only because we dont always get it but think we do