Then this "bully" challenges you, your sidekick CV5 and most especially Inquisitor to interpret Rom 1:13 and Rom 11:13. Can any of you post anything of genuine substance or are you all stuck on your second childhood.
I appreciate your reply Rufus and I bear no grudge, you have been wounded after all.
You mentioned me with a tick and that was a compliment.
We have touched on that verse (Romans 11:13) earlier in this thread.
Romans 11:13-14
But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Therefore insofar as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify
my ministry
if somehow I may move my own people to jealousy and save some of them.
Paul is telling the Gentiles after nine chapters why he was rambling on about the Jews.
That is exactly what Paul was doing from Romans 2 to Romans 11.
Also Rufus, can you see that Romans 11:13 on it's own supports your interpretation.
But not when Romans 11:14 follows Romans 11:13. That is the context and the context
in Romans is where you run aground.
I asked a third party to have a look at this question.
Here is the reply of AI (Chat GPT).
This is a fascinating theological question, and the interpretation of Romans in the context of Calvinism
(particularly its doctrines of predestination and election) requires careful attention to both the broader
context of Paul's argument in the letter and the specific text of Romans 8:29-30. Let’s explore this by
considering both possibilities.
Romans 8:29-30 and Calvinism
Romans 8:29-30 reads:
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."
Calvinists often use this "golden chain of salvation" to support the doctrine of unconditional election—God predestines certain individuals to salvation based on His sovereign will, not on any foreseen faith or merit in them. The progression from foreknowledge to predestination, calling, justification, and glorification is seen as a seamless work of God's grace.
Contextual Considerations in Romans
However, the broader context of Romans introduces nuances that complicate a purely Calvinistic interpretation:
- Paul's Focus on Israel and the Gentiles:
- The immediate and extended context of Romans (chapters 9-11, especially) centers on God’s plan for Israel and the inclusion of the Gentiles. Paul explains how the Jews, despite being God's chosen people, failed to achieve righteousness through the law, while the Gentiles obtained righteousness through faith.
- In this context, “foreknowledge” (Greek proginōskō) may not imply an individual predestining of believers but rather God’s covenantal foreknowledge of a group (e.g., Israel) or a plan for humanity.
- Covenantal Election vs. Individual Election:
- Some argue that the election discussed in Romans is primarily corporate or covenantal rather than individual. That is, God foreknew and predestined a people (the church, comprising Jews and Gentiles) to be conformed to Christ’s image.
- This interpretation aligns with the themes in Romans 9-11, where Paul discusses the remnant of Israel and the grafting in of Gentiles into the olive tree of God's people.
- Paul’s Concern for the Jews:
- As you noted, Paul expresses a deep concern for the Jews, longing for their salvation (Romans 9:1-5, 10:1). In Romans 11:14, he hopes to provoke his fellow Jews to jealousy so that some might be saved. This seems inconsistent with the Calvinist doctrine of double predestination, where the fate of individuals is irrevocably determined before birth.
- Human Responsibility and Faith:
- Throughout Romans, Paul emphasizes the necessity of faith for salvation (e.g., Romans 3:21-26, 10:9-13). This can be seen as placing some emphasis on human responsibility in responding to God’s call, which some argue is at odds with Calvinism's emphasis on irresistible grace.
Does the Context Suppress Calvinism?
The answer depends on how one interprets key terms like "foreknew" and "predestined" and the scope of Paul’s argument:
- Support for Calvinism:
- A Calvinist reading of Romans 8:29-30 is possible if one sees the passage as emphasizing God’s sovereign work in the salvation of individuals, independent of human effort or will.
- Challenges to Calvinism:
- The broader context of Romans, with its focus on God’s dealings with Israel and the inclusion of the Gentiles, lends itself more naturally to a corporate or covenantal understanding of election, which may challenge a strict Calvinist interpretation.
- Furthermore, Paul's stated hope for the salvation of his fellow Jews and his acknowledgment of their responsibility to respond to God’s call (e.g., Romans 10:21) suggest that human agency plays a role in God’s plan of salvation.
Conclusion
While Romans 8:29-30 can be read in a way that supports Calvinist theology, the broader context of Romans, particularly chapters 9-11, introduces significant tensions with a strict Calvinist framework. The focus on the interplay between God’s sovereignty and human responsibility, as well as Paul’s concern for the collective destiny of Jews and Gentiles, might better align with alternative theological frameworks, such as corporate election or synergism.
Would you like to explore any of these points further? Or perhaps compare Calvinist and non-Calvinist interpretations of related passages?
