The allegory of the 2 laws with Abraham’s 2 wives

ChristRoseFromTheDead · Dec 10, 2024

I think it has to do with God's promises. Since the firstborn inherited God's promises, God determined who the firstborn would be, rather than man's tradition of primogeniture that dictated the first born son after the flesh was the firstborn. So God determined who would inherit his promises. not man

Pilgrimshope · Dec 10, 2024

ChristRoseFromTheDead said:

Yes it does have to do with his promises , what I’m saying is if you look at the beginning the promises came after the pattern established

“And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. And she again bare his brother Abel.

…And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: but unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect.

And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:1-2, 4-8‬ ‭

after this

“Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

then promises began coming as your saying in that form of not the first born but the second being the chosen for a covenant promise not ishmael but isaac , not esau but Jacob , even not Adam the first man but Christ the second not the first covenant but the second

God follows the same patterns when dealing with man that become established early on

It was just an observation

ChristRoseFromTheDead · Dec 10, 2024

Pilgrimshope said:

then promises began coming as your saying in that form of not the first born but the second being the chosen for a covenant promise not ishmael but isaac , not esau but Jacob , even not Adam the first man but Christ the second not the first covenant but the second

Good observations

Pilgrimshope · Dec 10, 2024

ChristRoseFromTheDead said:

The same , you often have a lot of good things to say even if on some points we don’t yet both see it the same . Always appreciate interacting with you .

glf · Dec 10, 2024

Mt 5: 18:
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Gal 3: 10-11:
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3: 17-19:
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
1 Tim 1: 9:
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers...
Rom 3: 19-20:
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3: 28-29:
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
From the above scripture we can see that the Law, given to Israel wasn't just for Israel, but rather it was for all those who were lawless and disobdient; for the ungodly and sinners; for unholy and profane. So that every mouth may be stopped and all the world may become guilty before God, till heaven and earth pass.
Therefore, each person who stands before God's great white throne judgement, whose names are not written in the book of life will be judged by the standard contained within the 10 commandments, when the books of their works are opened for judgement.
The Letter of the law kills. The law could make no one perfect as pertaining to their conscience becaue the blood of bulls and goats can never take away sins; therefore those who are under the 1st testament have no absolution for their guilt.
The Old Covenant: Rom 7: 12: Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7: 1:
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 6: 4-5:
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Gal 3: 23-25:
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Heb 10: 1-4:
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
From when Jesus Christ enered Heaven with his own blood until this temporal heaven and earth pass away, the Old Covenant and the New covenant exist concurently. Until the lost who sinned while under the Old Covenant have been redeemed by Jesus' blood and joined with the faithful who are now under the New Covenant.
Heb 9: 13-15:
For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
This brings us to the promise of the New Covenant, by which the faithful are able to keep it; unlike those who were under the Old Covenant and who couldn't keep its holy requirements.
Heb 8: 8-10:
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
This ability to keep the requirement New Covenant is like the fruits of the Spirit which are produced in those who grow from babes-in-Christ to spiritual maturity.
Heb 5: 12-14:
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Heb 6: 1-2:
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Gal 3: 29:
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

posthuman · Dec 10, 2024

this passage is clearly not teaching salvation by works. that's not worth entertaining.

but to me one of most important things is that it tells us scripture is meant to be understood as not just historical fact but also allegory.

the two wives are literal women and they are also two covenants. this is how we should be reading the OT - yes, literal events but also yes, amazing pictures of Christ, purposefully recorded to testify of His work.

'rightly dividing' ((literally, to cut straight, having the blade aligned true, or clearing a road through a wilderness without meandering)) the word isn't creating divisions in it. it's finding the testimony of Christ in it.

Pilgrimshope · Dec 10, 2024

posthuman said:

this passage is clearly not teaching salvation by works. that's not worth entertaining.

but to me one of most important things is that it tells us scripture is meant to be understood as not just historical fact but also allegory.

the two wives are literal women and they are also two covenants. this is how we should be reading the OT - yes, literal events but also yes, amazing pictures of Christ, purposefully recorded to testify of His work.

'rightly dividing' ((literally, to cut straight, having the blade aligned true, or clearing a road through a wilderness without meandering)) the word isn't creating divisions in it. it's finding the testimony of Christ in it.

Edifying stuff

glf · Dec 10, 2024

Pilgrimshope said:

Brother, beloved of the Lord!
I'd like to make a slight correction, If I may: (even though you hit upon the truth of the matter in your next sentence)
It's not keeping the 10 commandments which are holy, just, and good that'll make us fall from grace, it's replacing our faith in Jesus with the keeping the 10 commandments for our justification that will cause Christ to become of no effect.

Also, I'd like to add:
Heb 7: 12:
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
I think of the ten commandments to be the minimum standard under the letter of the law. Whereas under the New Covenant and the Spirit of the law; not only are we not commit adultry, but we are to refrain from lusting for another or we've committed adultry in our hearts. We not only refrain from murder, but we are to no longer hate another or we've committed murder in our hearts. The love of money becomes idolatry. No longer is it an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, and a life for a life; but now under the New Covenant's Spirit of the law, its turn our cheek 70 times 7.

Pilgrimshope · Dec 10, 2024

glf said:

“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions,

till the seed should come to whom the promise was made;

and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

….But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:19, 23-25, 27-29‬ ‭

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:5-8‬ ‭

“For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:4‬ ‭

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:10-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The rocks minister death so tbat everyone has to come to Jesus and find life in tbe New Testament new word that he spoke as mediator of a new covenant. not according to what was said upon Sinai

“who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:6-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, and the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: (for they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: and so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:18-21‬ ‭

“but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-24‬ ‭

it has nothing to do with the tablets Moses received for Israel has everything to do with Jesus and the gospel

SabbathBlessing · Dec 11, 2024

I think its important when dealing with Paul's writings or anyone's writings but especially Paul's since it came with such a stern warning 2 Peter 3:15-16 to really prayerfully study what he is saying, compare it with other scripture and make sure it doesn't contradict the teachings of Jesus such as Mat 5:17-30 Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 19:17-19 John 14:15 and even Paul's own teachings where he says the commandments are holy, just and good (when should we not want to be like this) or breaking the commandments shows us our sins Rom 7:7 and breaking them dishonors God Rom 2:22-23 how we love our neighbor and God Rom 13:9 1 John 5:2-3 and keeping God's commandments is what matters 1 Cor 7:19

Paul is contrasting the two covenants- the old covenant verses the new and using an allegory of Sarah and Hagar.

First we need to understand what the new covenant is established on.

PROMISES- not new or better laws- we can't make something God wrote that is perfect for converting our souls more perfect Psa 19:7

Hebrews 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

This is what the promise was of the first covenant

Exo 19: 8 Then all the people answered together and said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do.” So Moses brought back the words of the people to the Lord.

So the people are doing in the OC when they promised to keep God's covenant.

This is what the New Covenant is established on the better promise:

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

So in the NC it is no longer established on our strength of obeying God, its based on His strength - He is the one doing- we just need to cooperate with Him.

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [e]Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

So its a much better promise having God doing, than relying on our own strength.

How does these better promises relate to Sarah and Hagar. It relates perfectly.

Abraham was promised to make a great nation through his seed, but the problem was Sarah was in advanced age Genesis 18:11 and instead of depending on God's strength she took matters in her own hands by taking their slave Hagar, to bear a child for Abraham instead of trusting God that He would deliver on His promise in His own time.

I can provide a deeper bible study on this if anyone is interested. You can message me.

God bless!

Beckworth · Dec 16, 2024

Pilgrimshope said:

Well, I can’t tell from your writing whether you are being sarcastic, facetious, or sincere, but you proved my point—that we don’t keep the 10 commandments because they are in Judaism, we keep them because they are in the law of Christ; all except the “sabbath day” commandment. We are not keeping the “old law” of the Jews, we are keeping the doctrine of Christ.

SabbathBlessing · Dec 16, 2024

For something that was "old law" there was sure a lot of Sabbath keeping in the NT, still a commandment, still remains for God's people. Kept by everyone we are to follow, including Jesus.

And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

Heb 4:9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;

The rest in this verse literally translates into keeping of the Sabbath

so there remains a keeping of the Sabbath for the people of God
because God’s people keep God’s commandments- His version Exo 20:6 Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14 not what was changed we are warned about Dan 7:25

sabbatismos: Sabbath rest
Original Word: σαββατισμός
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: sabbatismos
Pronunciation: sab-bat-is-mos'
Phonetic Spelling: (sab-bat-is-mos')
Definition: Sabbath rest
Meaning: a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

God wrote and God spoke these Words- who is greater than God to change a jot or tittle?

Exodus 20:101 0 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God

Man says forget the Sabbath

God wrote and God said
Exo 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Whoever we obey is who we serve Rom 6:16

At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
- Matthew 12:1

But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
- Matthew 12:2

Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
- Matthew 12:5

For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
- Matthew 12:8

And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
- Matthew 12:10

And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
- Matthew 12:11

How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
- Matthew 12:12

But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
- Matthew 24:20

In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
- Matthew 28:1

And they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught.
- Mark 1:21

And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.
- Mark 2:23

And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?
- Mark 2:24

And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
- Mark 2:27

Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
- Mark 2:28

And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him.
- Mark 3:2

And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.
- Mark 3:4

And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
- Mark 6:2

And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,
- Mark 15:42

And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
- Mark 16:1

SabbathBlessing · Dec 16, 2024

And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
- Luke 4:16

And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them on the sabbath days.
- Luke 4:31

And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
- Luke 6:1

And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?
- Luke 6:2

And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
- Luke 6:5

And it came to pass also on another sabbath, that he entered into the synagogue and taught: and there was a man whose right hand was withered.
- Luke 6:6

And the scribes and Pharisees watched him, whether he would heal on the sabbath day; that they might find an accusation against him.
- Luke 6:7

Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?
- Luke 6:9

And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.
- Luke 13:10

And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day.
- Luke 13:14

The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering?
- Luke 13:15

And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?
- Luke 13:16

And it came to pass, as he went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the sabbath day, that they watched him.
- Luke 14:1

And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day?
- Luke 14:3

And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?
- Luke 14:5

And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.
- Luke 23:54

And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.
- Luke 23:56

And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.
- John 5:9

The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.
- John 5:10

And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
- John 5:16

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
- John 5:18

Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers

and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.
- John 7:22

If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?
- John 7:23

And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes.
- John 9:14

Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.
- John 9:16

The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
- John 19:31

Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
- Acts 1:12

But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
- Acts 13:14

For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
- Acts 13:27

And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
- Acts 13:42

And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
- Acts 13:44

For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
- Acts 15:21

And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
- Acts 16:13

And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
- Acts 17:2

And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
- Acts 18:4

The only way one comes to the conclusion the Sabbath is not a commandment in the NT and kept by everyone we are to follow is if they take a black marker to what Jesus taught and lived and start removing God’s Word. But in doing so there are some warnings Pro 30:5-6 and one would be following “self” and holding “traditions of man” over the commandments of God making the Word of God of no effect something Jesus warned about Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13

What Christ deemed righteous Psa 119:172 Isa 56:1-6 stays righteous Psa 119:142 Rev 22:11 we need to come out of our false teachings Rev 18:4 before its too late because once Jesus comes in the Clouds all decisions are final Rev 22:11

glf · Dec 16, 2024

Gal 2: 11-21:
But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Gal 5: 4:
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
2 Pet 3: 15-16:
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

For your doctrine to be truth, it must agree with both the scriptures that you've listed and with the Scriptures in Gal. Did Jesus tell anyone other than Peter than they were blessed having heard from the Father directly; and Peter tells us in the scripture above, that Paul's epistles contain some things that are hard to understand which the unlerned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures. The Law has some 613 commandments including the 10 commandments written by the Lord himself. True most of them deal with the duties of the priesthood, but not all of them, and many of the OT commandments come with the curse of death as their just recompense. How can you single out some of them, like the 10 commandments, while ignoring the rest? Tell me how the law of the Spirit of life agrees with the law of sin and death?
How can we ignore Rom 8: 2: For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. Or in Heb 7: 12: For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. Along with Heb 7: 18-19: For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. Finally, in Gal 4: 9-11: But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Lets talk about the change from the letter of the law that kills to the Spirit of the law in Christ Jesus that brings life:
The letter of the law dealt with a persons outward behvior, whereas the Spirit of the law deals with the intent of the heart. It is actually, a higher standard that comes with the promise of the New Covenant, which is: Heb 8: For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: Or again in Heb 9: 14: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? This is what makes us able to keep the requirement of the New Covenant, where no one was able to keep the requirement of the OT exept Jesus, our kinsman redeemer. No longer is it, thou shall not commit adultry, but rather, if you look on another with lust, you've committed adultry in your heart. No longer is it thou shall not commit murder, but rather, if you hate your brother, you've committed murder in your heart. No longer is it an eye for an eye, a tooth for tooth, or a life for a life; but rather we are to turn our cheeks seventy times seven. No longer is it, remember the sabboth to keep it holy; for a better than a sabboth is here: in those who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, so that from now until forever, its every day is a good day to keep ourselves holy and to do good.

Remember, the truth must agree with all scripture!

SabbathBlessing · Dec 16, 2024

Galatians is referring to circumcision - the Jews were trying to make Gentiles be circumcised in order to be saved. Paul addressed this in Acts and Galatians and this is the law he was referring to in falling from grace- trying to save oneself by getting circumcised Gal 2:3 Acts 15:1 not only worshipping God, keeping His name holy, stealing or converting or breaking the least of these commandments as Jesus taught Mat 5:18-30. Paul contrasted circumcision with the commandments of God and said what matters is keeping the commandments of God 1 Cor 7:19

What changed was the placement of God's law- based on the better promises. From written on stone to being written in the heart Heb 8:10 no longer based only on our efforts Exo 19:8 but with the help of the Holy Spirit through our love and cooperation with God John 14:15-18

Dino246 · Dec 16, 2024

SabbathBlessing said:

Wow... miss the point much? If Paul is not saying that trying to keep the Law is a complete waste, then Christians are still under ALL of the Sinai covenant. It's not a smorgasbord. The new covenant in Christ's blood COMPLETELY replaces the Sinai covenant. As Paul wrote to the Galatians, "Are you so foolish?"

Unfortunately, the apparent answer is "Yes".

ChristRoseFromTheDead · Dec 16, 2024

SabbathBlessing said:

You're up to your usual dishonest gaslighting. The Jews from Jerusalem, ie pharisees, were telling believing gentiles that they had to be circumcised AND keep the law of Moses. Is it possible for you to be honest for once and include all of the information?

But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. Acts 15:5

glf · Dec 17, 2024

SabbathBlessing said:

2 Cor 3: 6:
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
Rom 7: 6:
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Rom 4: 5-6:
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Phi 3: 9:
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

What do you suppose, ye are not under the law means? Or what does delivered from the law mean? Ignoring the scriptures above, are you're telling us that we should serve the Lord in the oldness of the letter of the law and not in the newness of the Spirit? How is it possible that you insist that we should live under the law when we have died to the law wherein we were held; when by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in the Lord's sight. And also our righteousness is now imputed to us by faith in Jesus without regard to works.

The weakness of the law is seen in the following:
Gal 3: 10-12:
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Even though we're no longer under the law for our justification and righteousness, we are now under the law of the Spirit of life which imparts life as we devote ourselves to the word of God. Three things happen as delve into scripture: First; the promise of the New Covenant, which is accomplished as the Lord puts his commandments into our hearts and minds, transforming us by the renewing of our minds proving the good, acceptable, and perfect will of God as per Rom 12: 2: And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. So we grow spiritually by the ministry of the Holy Spirit as we devote ourselves to scripture. Second; the Holy Spirit who speaks not of his own makes scripture to be Jesus speaking to us, Spirit to spirit and we learn of him, as per 2 Pet 1: 3: According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: We learn to love the Lord because he first loved us. Jesus tells us, in Jn 14: 21: He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Thirdly; the Holy Spirit uses scripture to improve our faith so that we're able to be pleasing to the Lord, as per Heb 11: 6: But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. This is what makes the change from the OT's letter of the law to the law of the Spirit of life's higher standard possible in those who are born of the Spirit.

SabbathBlessing · Dec 17, 2024

glf said:

I would consider, especially when dealing with Pauls writings not pluking a verse here or a verse here without looking at the entire context.

For example you quoted Romans 7:6 but didn’t quote the very next verse

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

The role of the Ten Commandments is not save us, it is to show us our sin, so we are not depending on our righteous way of living, because our righteousness is as filthy rags but to show us God’s righteous way of living Psa 119:172 which is perfect for converting the soul 19:7 and when we see sin in our lives which God’s law points out it shows us our need for Jesus when we repent confess and ask for forgiveness He cleanses us from all sin and unrighteousness but then says God and sin no more- meaning go and do not break My commandments- be without sin

There are two main laws in scripture- God’s law the Ten Commandments - God wrote God spoke and claimed them as His- My commandments Exo 20:6 and the book law of Moses- as noted in Gal 3:10 the law Paul is referring to Deut 31:24-26 which is everything written in the book next to the ark that included circumcision and the sacrificial system given for breaking God’s law which shows us our sin Rom 7:7 1 John 3:4 Mat 5:19-30 James 2:10-12

When Paul says we are not “under the law” he is referring to not under the condemnation of the law, not the law itself which is holy righteous and just Rom 7:12 and there is never a time we are supposed to not be like. The wages of sin is death (condemnation of the law) but if we are in Christ we are not breaking God’s law (so no condemnation) no one in Christ is worshipping another god, taking His name in vain, bowing to false idols, breaking His holy Sabbath day, stealing, coveting or breaking the least of these and going against the teachings and example of Jesus we are to follow.

The difference of the better covenant as noted in 2 Cor 2:3 is the surface on which the Ten Commandments was written on- from tables of stone to tablets of the heart, God wrote His law in our hearts right where sin begins in the heart, and now instead of trying to obey Him in our strength He is the one doing. The Spirit never violates God’s law- thats the other spirit we were warned about in scripture.

SabbathBlessing · Dec 17, 2024

For those interested here is a very deep study on 2 Cor 2:3. Misunderstanding Paul comes with some serious consequences. People claim we are not under the law using Pauls writings, but Jesus says depart from Me those who practice lawlessness at His Second Coming - and are left outside the gates of the city Mat 7:21-23 Rev 22:14-15 so the warning in Pauls writings 1 Peter 3:15-16 that people twist to their own destruction and Christ saying I do not know you, those who practice lawlessness and being left outside the city is just that. So we need to be sure our understanding of Pauls writings is what Jesus taught and Jesus lived- who if we abide in Him John 15:10 He is our example to follow 1 John 2:6

https://adventdefenseleague.com/202...e-to-an-adventist-critic-2-corinthians-3.html

And here is a detailed video that breaks down the two covenants being referred to in Galatians

The allegory of the 2 laws with Abraham’s 2 wives

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