Understanding God’s election

[Rufus]

Our spirit isn’t dead our flesh is corrupt

“to deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭5:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, Searching all the inward parts of the belly.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭20:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him?

even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭2:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.”
‭‭Zechariah‬ ‭12:1‬ ‭

“The spirit of a man will sustain his infirmity; But a wounded spirit who can bear?”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭18:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

redemption from the wrong knowledge to the truth the word of lasting life

Oh...so Paul got it all wrong, did he?

Col 2:13
13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ.
NIV

Don't you know that only the living can die!? Adam died, and so all his posterity died with him! Likewise, only the dead can be brought back to life! Even Jesus taught that there is such a thing as spiritual death. See the Parable of the Prodigal Son. Or understand what Jesus meant, when he said, "God is not the God of the dead but only of the living (Lk 20:38).

Sadly, Col 2:13 does not read:

13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive after you came to believe in his Son.

But if man's "free will" is powerful enough to overcome death and to choose against it in order to believe the gospel, what's the purpose of life after faith is exercised? Why can't all believers just continue to overcome death in this life via the awesome power of our "free will" until the day we all die? Since everyone's will is "free", spiritual life in this age serves no purpose.

 

[Rufus]

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭32:33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Let them be blotted out of the book of the living,

And not be written with the righteous.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭69:28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

notice they have to be in the book first in order to be blotted out because of the sins they commited ?

the gospel offered this

“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:19‬ ‭

We arent born condemned we are condemned by sin.

You're assuming the "book of the living" in the OT and the "book of life" in the New are synonymous. They are not.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

You're assuming the "book of the living" in the OT and the "book of life" in the New are synonymous. They are not.

How do you know?

 

[Jimbone]

Oh...so Paul got it all wrong, did he?

Col 2:13
13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ.
NIV

Don't you know that only the living can die!? Adam died, and so all his posterity died with him! Likewise, only the dead can be brought back to life! Even Jesus taught that there is such a thing as spiritual death. See the Parable of the Prodigal Son. Or understand what Jesus meant, when he said, "God is not the God of the dead but only of the living (Lk 20:38).

Sadly, Col 2:13 does not read:

13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive after you came to believe in his Son.

But if man's "free will" is powerful enough to overcome death and to choose against it in order to believe the gospel, what's the purpose of life after faith is exercised? Why can't all believers just continue to overcome death in this life via the awesome power of our "free will" until the day we all die? Since everyone's will is "free", spiritual life in this age serves no purpose.

Paul does say it best doesn't he?
In Romans he sums it up nice-

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Doesn't leave room for even 1, and I know many disagree but when you add the facts that God grants us repentance, gifts us each a measure of faith, as well as it being Him that is drawing us to Him, I do not see ANY room for us to think that it's by our power ANY of this happens. Yet some on this site teach we are not even born sinners. We do nothing and God does EVERYTHING.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Oh...so Paul got it all wrong, did he?

Col 2:13
13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ.
NIV

Don't you know that only the living can die!? Adam died, and so all his posterity died with him! Likewise, only the dead can be brought back to life! Even Jesus taught that there is such a thing as spiritual death. See the Parable of the Prodigal Son. Or understand what Jesus meant, when he said, "God is not the God of the dead but only of the living (Lk 20:38).

Sadly, Col 2:13 does not read:

13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive after you came to believe in his Son.

But if man's "free will" is powerful enough to overcome death and to choose against it in order to believe the gospel, what's the purpose of life after faith is exercised? Why can't all believers just continue to overcome death in this life via the awesome power of our "free will" until the day we all die? Since everyone's will is "free", spiritual life in this age serves no purpose.

Well no of course pul didn’t have it wrong, that verse agrees . it says they were dead in thier sins not that they were born spiritually dead.

The body is the dead part

“And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin;

but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If we’re already dead why do we need to get baptized into Christs death for our sins ?

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: ( but we already are dead ?)

that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we aren’t born spiritually dead , our living soul is condemned to die because of our sins. That’s why we need to die with Jesus , to remit our sins and the reason death has to take us

“in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:11-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You're assuming the "book of the living" in the OT and the "book of life" in the New are synonymous. They are not.

Yeah the book Gods writing of the living ……isn’t the book of life ….sounds reasonable

 

[cv5]

Calvinists do not see the 'same way' in the same way...

They like to argue and stay stuck on that level. Never growing much beyond that.
And, it's so easy to argue about what they do not understand... But, think they do.

God sovereignly had me say that.

Pretty much yes. Some kind of a brackish backwater that never gets fresh input.
And as you can see......there is VAST quantities of Biblical revelation outside of the echo chamber.

 

[Inquisitor]

Yes, I heard because God raised me from the dead to give me that ability. Only the living can hear! The dead cannot.

Your statements are contradictory.

"I heard because God raised me from the dead"

If you were predestined and always had the Holy Spirit, then you were never dead.

God did not at some time give you that ability, you always had that ability.

"I heard because God raised me from the dead to give me that ability"

The doctrinal fact is that we receive the Holy Spirit after we believe.

The reception of the seal (the Holy Spirit) means we are saved.

"Only the living can hear! The dead cannot"

I can assure you that both the living and the dead have very poor hearing.

The apostles in the gospels struggled with everything the Lord said.

 

[cv5]

Paul does say it best doesn't he?
In Romans he sums it up nice-

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Doesn't leave room for even 1, and I know many disagree but when you add the facts that God grants us repentance, gifts us each a measure of faith, as well as it being Him that is drawing us to Him, I do not see ANY room for us to think that it's by our power ANY of this happens. Yet some on this site teach we are not even born sinners. We do nothing and God does EVERYTHING.

Looks like you failed math. Because you failed to include THE CRITICAL VERSE after which the rest follow:

Psa 14:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

Psa 53:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

The scathing critique applies to THIS VERY PERSON suffering from this foregoing assessment.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

If an individual is among God's elect, they will be saved regardless of their actions; conversely, if they are not among God's elect, they cannot obtain salvation regardless of their actions. In both scenarios, one's deeds have no influence on outcome.

“one's deeds have no influence on outcome”

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:


but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth;

they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Rufus]

More likely a dove descended.

Maybe even the same one God sent to Noah after the flood. Now that would be one ol' bird!

 

[Pilgrimshope]

How do you know?

“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭13:8‬ ‭

“And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin–; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭32:32-33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The book was already written from the beginning and people then get blotted out of it. Even at the end of revelation the same principle exists

“and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God created all men and gave them a living spirit later sin brings death and they are blotted out of the book of the living. The gospel is salvstion so that we won’t be blotted out because of our sins behind us

“He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭3:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Rufus]

Looks like you failed math. Because you failed to include THE CRITICAL VERSE after which the rest follow:

Psa 14:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

Psa 53:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

The scathing critique applies to THIS VERY PERSON suffering from this foregoing assessment.

You should be the last one to speak of others' failings (real or perceived) since you fail to see that that so called "critical verse" is NOT in Romans 3. Therefore, Roger did not miss anything. What I would do if I were you is file a complaint against the inspired apostle Paul since that clearly was his "oversight". You should petition God for a hearing so that you can criticize both Paul and the Holy Spirit for omitting Ps 14:1 and 53:1 from the Romans 3. In fact, you should ask God to reopen the NT canon to make the changes you want.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You should be the last one to speak of others' failings (real or perceived) since you fail to see that that so called "critical verse" is NOT in Romans 3. Therefore, Roger did not miss anything. What I would do if I were you is file a complaint against the inspired apostle Paul since that clearly was his "oversight". You should petition God for a hearing so that you can criticize both Paul and the Holy Spirit for omitting Ps 14:1 and 53:1 from the Romans 3. In fact, you should ask God to reopen the NT canon to make the changes you want.

Are you talking about what Paul wrote here ?

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:


but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Or what Paul’s lord said here ?

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth;

they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

yeah 😅takes a lot of changes to make it say that ……

 

[Inquisitor]

You're wrong! I never said that! I said that all God's elect were predestined in eternity to come to faith and repentance in temporal reality. I did not come into this world born in the Last Adam! I came into it born in Adam!

Also, to be in a state of regeneration is precisely to be alive in the Spirit of Christ. Just like natural birth is a process, likewise the spiritual birth of any saint is also a process

You are so confused.

Jesus Christ was predestined and so was conforming your life to His life (His image).

Paul is not talking about individual election in Romans 8:29 or in Ephesians 1:5.

Paul is talking about mankind being destined to holiness, godliness.

Your Christian life (walking like Jesus) was predestined, that is what "to become conformed to the image of His Son"
means. Romans 8:29 does not say, saved from eternity.

Romans 8:29 uses the word, 'foreknew', which gives the game away. Israel was formerly known by God and the
the Gentiles were separate from Christ, excluded from the people of Israel. The Gentiles were strangers
to the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

The way it works is that God did, in fact, predestine the construct of salvation.

Through the sacrifice of His Son.

Offered salvation to the whole world.

Predestined a transformation (conformed) to the image of His Son.

Would grant the Holy Spirit to anyone who believed that simple, three line gospel.

Your name can be written into the book of life and it can be erased.

You can be grafted in and then grafted out and that is based on your faith.
Israel was grafted into Jesus but then grafted out of Jesus.
Israel was for a time exclusively chosen but then rejected.
Israel is the example for us to understand that we stand by faith.

Endure in your faith (belief) then you remain saved.

 

[Rufus]

“one's deeds have no influence on outcome”

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:


but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth;

they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And one more thing while I think of it. Here's a truth you can stuff in your hash pipe and puff on until the cows come home: Roman's 3 is the universal, divinely inspired indictment against all mankind (unbelieving Jews and Gentiles).

Secondly, Paul didn't have include Ps 14:1 since it should be understood from everything the NT teaches that all unbelievers are atheists in the practical sense. How? Because all unbelievers live their every day lives as though there is no God. Practically speaking, all unbelievers are atheists because they don't believe in the one and only true God, consequently their sinful lifestyles reflect this reality. Therefore, Paul's universal indictment against all humanity is valid.

 

[Rufus]

Are you talking about what Paul wrote here ?

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:


but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Or what Paul’s lord said here ?

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth;

they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

yeah 😅takes a lot of changes to make it say that ……

I'm talking about what you utterly failed to see in Rom 3:10-18. Why would anyone in his right mind complain about something an inspired writer left out of his argument. I think I will trust Paul's judgment in this matter, rather yours, which seems to have gone off the rails.

 

[Rufus]

How do you know?

Usage study.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

And one more thing while I think of it. Here's a truth you can stuff in your hash pipe and puff on until the cows come home: Roman's 3 is the universal, divinely inspired indictment against all mankind (unbelieving Jews and Gentiles).

Secondly, Paul didn't have include Ps 14:1 since it should be understood from everything the NT teaches that all unbelievers are atheists in the practical sense. How? Because all unbelievers live their every day lives as though there is no God. Practically speaking, all unbelievers are atheists because they don't believe in the one and only true God, consequently their sinful lifestyles reflect this reality. Therefore, Paul's universal indictment against all humanity is valid.

Yeah you really seem to avoid scripture and cast your thinking on others who present scripture to me . But I think I understand the issue after seeing the immaturity in your responses

“For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭5:12-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

milk is good and you grow a little but meat makes you grow up and eventually milk doesn’t have the sustenance you need to bear fruit

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I'm talking about what you utterly failed to see in Rom 3:10-18. Why would anyone in his right mind complain about something an inspired writer left out of his argument. I think I will trust Paul's judgment in this matter, rather yours, which seems to have gone off the rails.

yeah romans 3 is there so is Roman’s 2