Understanding God’s election

[cv5]

Yeah...and what exactly did Issac and Jacob have to do with God's eternal decree that he made regarding their eternal destiny? Were Issac and Jacob seated next to God's throne in heaven begging him to make that decree on their behalf?

They trusted in Gods promises, valued the promises, and chose to cling to The Promise.
That is what they had to do with it.
Which is exactly what WE have to do with it.

But Esau? He wanted NOTHING to do with it.

And there you go. No dizzy Calvinista nuttery required to figure this one out.

 

[Kroogz]

Agree......lets do P for "preservation".
Far more accurate description in light of Who is actually doing the preserving and who is getting preserved.

Or ultimately Who is actually doing the holding-on and who thinks they are doing the holding-on.
Which is what these passages portray....
But lets not forget.....Jacob was doing his part in this drama as an act of his own will no doubt about that.

[Gen 32:24 KJV]
And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.

[Gen 32:25 KJV]
And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.

[Gen 32:26 KJV]
And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.

[Gen 32:27 KJV]
And he said unto him, What [is] thy name? And he said, Jacob.

[Gen 32:28 KJV]
And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

And If you think about it, their 'P' and the way they teach it topples the "t." How can a totally depraved human Who has absolutely no way of seeing anything that remotely resembles Christ.......Try to fool us by ACTING like a Christian?

There would be absolutely no tares in the Church......They are blind to absolutely anything related to Christ. They couldn't even begin to try to fool us, they don't even know what to imitate.

 

[HeIsHere]

I've moved nothing. I addressed the post before me.

I believe the scripture provides ample evidence of man's fallen estate and tells why man is incapable of faith apart from the work of God on his behalf. This has been shown to you on numerable occasions. You simply choose to disregard it.

I never stated it was Cameron, it is the preachers and teachers who move the goal post and others fall prey to them.
Pay attention there Cameron!! lol

 

[Magenta]

There would be absolutely no tares in the Church

Um, what? The church is saved people. You know? Those called out. Oh, wait. Do you believe
people are called? Any ways, if you properly define words, there are no tares in the Body of Christ.
They are contradictory terms. Aside from that, your logic is a massive fail because people are not
stupid, just depraved. They don't call largely successful criminals "master minds" for nothing.

 

[Genez]

It's ridiculous the lengths the doctrine will go in direct opposition to what God reveals about Himself.

Just look what the liberal media does to Donald Trump...

Just look how Obama just accused the new administration of doing the very things he helped to organize and implement.

Over time we can learn that there are certain patterns to lying against the Truth.

 

[Rufus]

"Total Depravity..." is a misnomer.

It might be more accurate to say..... Man has "Inherited Depravity."

Man is inherently depraved.

Total Depravity would be making it to be that there is nothing for God to save.
It would be like saying a car that is declared to be 'totalled' has nothing good in its content.
Yet, many parts may be perfectly fine, and to be transferred to another vehicle that will use those parts.

No, Total Depravity is not a misnomer. It's dead on the mark since it's the heart of man (which is the seat of ALL four of man's faculties) that is corrupt.

And there are NO good working parts in man. Only God alone is good! And only the Holy Spirit who indwells believers is Good.

 

[HeIsHere]

I know for a fact that a number of people have shared dozens and dozens of verses that display man's inability due to his fallen nature.

Do you think that this >>> one poetic figurative sentence refutes all of Christ's Jesus statements to Believe?

The wicked have turned away from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.

Even if I accept that this means all babies are born liars throughout all time in all places because David was feeling low and down on the mouth it still comes nowhere near making a statement about how people are spiritually saved.

As you well know and I have stated many times clear passages interpret less clear passages and Jesus clearly stated... Believe in Me!

So far not one has been about spiritual salvation and being born (did you see it Born!!) unable to respond positively to the Power and Truth of the Gospel message.

Everyone who has escaped this soul crushing doctrine knows very well about how it is all done via singular proof texts with no real context.

 

[cv5]

I've moved nothing. I addressed the post before me.

I believe the scripture provides ample evidence of man's fallen estate and tells why man is incapable of faith apart from the work of God on his behalf. This has been shown to you on numerable occasions. You simply choose to disregard it.

Pray tell us whether men are responsible to respond to Gods call or not.

The Scriptures say that men are obliged to so do. Calvinites say that mean are utterly incapable. Of both hearing or heeding.

Calvinites demand that the ONLY way to salvation for EACH MAN is a pre-birth lottery type deal. Nothing else matters, nothing else is a factor. Because there are simply no other options available to the supposedly totally depraved supposedly spiritually dead doomed blind and deaf sinners.

 

[Inquisitor]

I agree that God works within the choices of men. But if you read Acts 2:37 you find God enabling ears to here and circumsizes the heart. I believe this is what alters the volition and leads to...what shall we do?
Many more than 3000 people heard Peter's sermon. What caused some to believe while others did not? As I understand the passage, the working of hearing and the pricking of the heart is the answer. Both these things done internally are works that only God can do. So while I believe fallen man has the ability to understand and make choices, I also believe that those choices are subject to His nature. Since I don't believe choosing God to be possible in the fallen nature, I believe God must first alter the corruption of the fallen nature before man can choose outside of that nature and its corruption.

I don't disagree with what your saying here.

It is a fact that the prime mover in salvation is Christ alone, I am a strong on the sovereignty of God.

Unfortunately, we are constant wresting within ourselves between serving Jesus and self fulfillment.

There are two playing fields in Romans, the sovereignty of God and mankind's choices.

Do we choose salvation as Gentiles?

Of course we don't and never could until Israel chose to oppose Jesus.

This is what Romans is teaching us.

Israel failed and were grafted out which enabled abundant grace for the Gentiles.

Israel were the original chosen people of God not the Gentiles.

The Gentiles were an unknown nation to make Israel jealous.

Paul is not giving a sermon on sovereignty.

Paul is explaining why Israel failed to achieve righteous through the law.

If you ignore the CONTEXT in Romans you will fail to understand what Paul is talking about.

You will end up being baptized into Calvinism just like the different groups in Corinth.

 

[Genez]

In other words, you can't prove it. .

To you? No.

Others whom the Spirit can reach? Yes!

 

[Rufus]

Um, what? The church is saved people. You know? Those called out. Oh, wait. Do you believe
people are called? Any ways, if you properly define words, there are no tares in the Body of Christ.
They are contradictory terms. Aside from that, your logic is a massive fail because people are not
stupid, just depraved. They don't call largely successful criminals "master minds" for nothing.

But the unregenerate are "stupid" when it comes to spiritual truth (Eccl 10:3). They have no spiritual understanding (Rom 3:11).

 

[cv5]

"Total Depravity..." is a misnomer.

It might be more accurate to say..... Man has "Inherited Depravity."

Man is inherently depraved.

Total Depravity would be making it to be that there is nothing for God to save.
It would be like saying a car that is declared to be 'totalled' has nothing good in its content.
Yet, many parts may be perfectly fine, and to be transferred to another vehicle that will use those parts.

Man is stained with sin and flawed with weakness.
But the Bible is perfectly clear that all men are to seeks Gods face, repent, and are responsible to hearken to Gods calling.
Therefore, man is FAR from unreachable. Quite the contrary.

 

[The_Parson]

Wow, this is intense. Don't ya think?

 

[Genez]

No, Total Depravity is not a misnomer. It's dead on the mark since it's the heart of man (which is the seat of ALL four of man's faculties) that is corrupt.

And there are NO good working parts in man. Only God alone is good! And only the Holy Spirit who indwells believers is Good.

Rufus? How many Pharisees did Jesus take a lot of time trying to explain the truth to?

 

[Rufus]

I don't disagree with what your saying here.

It is a fact that the prime mover in salvation is Christ alone, I am a strong on the sovereignty of God.

Unfortunately, we are constant wresting within ourselves between serving Jesus and self fulfillment.

There are two playing fields in Romans, the sovereignty of God and mankind's choices.

Do we choose salvation as Gentiles?

Of course we don't and never could until Israel chose to oppose Jesus.

This is what Romans is teaching us.

Israel failed and were grafted out which enabled abundant grace for the Gentiles.

Israel were the original chosen people of God not the Gentiles.

The Gentiles were an unknown nation to make Israel jealous.

Paul is not giving a sermon on sovereignty.

Paul is explaining why Israel failed to achieve righteous through the law.

If you ignore the CONTEXT in Romans you will fail to understand what Paul is talking about.

You will end up being baptized into Calvinism just like the different groups in Corinth.

Both elect Jews and Gentiles choose salvation after they have been alive in Christ by God. Since the physically dead have no inherent ability, what makes you think that the spiritual dead have any?

 

[Cameron143]

Do you think that this >>> one poetic figurative sentence refutes all of Christ's Jesus statements to Believe?

The wicked have turned away from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.

Even if I accept that this means all babies are born liars throughout all time in all places because David was feeling low and down on the mouth it still comes nowhere near making a statement about how people are spiritually saved.

As you well know and I have stated many times clear passages interpret less clear passages and Jesus clearly stated... Believe in Me!

So far not one has been about spiritual salvation and being born (did you see it Born!!) unable to respond positively to the Power and Truth of the Gospel message.

Everyone who has escaped this soul crushing doctrine knows very well about how it is all done via singular proof texts with no real context.

No one should form a doctrine from a singular verse or passage. Neither should they ignore the full counsel of scripture, but compare scripture with scripture.

You have done so and reached doctrine you believe is correct. Others have done the same and disagree with your assessment. We all have to reconcile apparent contradictions. What makes sense to one doesn't always make sense to another.

 

[Rufus]

Rufus? How many Pharisees did Jesus take a lot of time trying to explain the truth to?

And what were Jesus' words to the Pharisees and other religious elites shortly before he went to the Cross?

 

[Cameron143]

Pray tell us whether men are responsible to respond to Gods call or not.

The Scriptures say that men are obliged to so do. Calvinites say that mean are utterly incapable. Of both hearing or heeding.

Calvinites demand that the ONLY way to salvation for EACH MAN is a pre-birth lottery type deal. Nothing else matters, nothing else is a factor. Because there are simply no other options available to the supposedly totally depraved supposedly spiritually dead doomed blind and deaf sinners.

Sure, man is responsible before God. Romans 1 makes this clear, as well as many other passages.

 

[Magenta]

But the unregenerate are "stupid" when it comes to spiritual truth (Eccl 10:3). They have no spiritual understanding (Rom 3:11).

The god of this world has blinded them, this is true. But according to K-man, that more or
less translates into meaning they have no intelligence at all and that is simply is not true.
Even babies are adept at imitation and mimicry.

 

[Inquisitor]

"Total Depravity..." is a misnomer.

It might be more accurate to say..... Man has "Inherited Depravity."

Man is inherently depraved.

Total Depravity would be making it to be that there is nothing for God to save.
It would be like saying a car that is declared to be 'totalled' has nothing good in its content.
Yet, many parts may be perfectly fine, and to be transferred to another vehicle that will use those parts.

Your argument fails on the grounds of the flood of Noah's era.

All died apart from Noah's family and only Noah was chosen to be saved.

There is nothing redeemable in humanity.

God's love for His creation is the fundamental reason for our salvation.

We were already dead when Christ died for us and we are still dead in Christ.

The only life, redemption, fruit, works, belongs to Christ's reconciliation and the Holy Spirit within us.

By grace through faith and nothing of ourselves, means we are not capable of anything
approaching righteousness in ourselves.

The real truth is love was a gift of the Holy Spirit because we do not love others.

The gospel itself, Christ alone, should be idiot proof, but we have found ways to even undermine
Christ's sovereignty.