Understanding God’s election

[Genez]

There is little common ground with people who assert this TULIP system. They believe Christ Jesus only died for some and that God only loves them, this has to have an impact on a person's psyche over time.

They live up to the stereotype over and over again.

It can start okay, but ultimately because of their theology and their constant need for affirmation of a wrong doctrine (dunno,maybe deep down the know they are wrong) it ends up going sour.

Probably some are Christians but their doctrine stunts their growth despite all the intellectualism of their leaders like Piper, Sproul, MacArthur, Begg, Baucham etc.,etc.,

As someone once told me, Calvinist are okay until they start talking about their doctrines, I find this to be so true with people like Baucham etc., and even on here.

Catholics teach and believe that the bread becomes the literal body of Jesus.
Catholics teach and believe that the wine becomes the literal blood of Jesus.
Catholics teach and believe that God waved his wand and transformed Mary into having no sin nature.

They will argue with you ad ad infinitum.

Now?

Calvinists teach and believe that Jesus only died for some of the sins of mankind - for the elect only.
Calvinists teach and believe that God forces people to believe in Jesus. - Irresistible grace.

They will argue with you ad ad infinitum.

Need I say more? They both came out of the era of the dark ages ...
One broke away from total idiocy of the RCC, and ran into a semblance of Biblical sense, (that was till needing some work).

grace and peace ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[cv5]

Great example of God making two lumps of clay our of one in Rom 9! The first "lump" in v.29 God predestined to be used for noble purposes (cf. also Act 13:48)); whereas the second lump in v.30, God predestined to be used for common purposes (cf. also 1Pet 2:8).

The Romans 9 is primarily about the NATION Israel and why they supposedly failed.
The potter and the clay hearkens back to Jeremiah 18 and is dealing with NATIONS.
In context Jacob and Esau are NATIONS.

 

[cv5]

Catholics teach and believe that the bread becomes the literal body of Jesus.
Catholics teach and believe that the wine becomes the literal blood of Jesus.
Catholics teach and believe that God waved his wand and transformed Mary into having no sin nature.

They will argue with you ad ad infinitum.

Now?

Calvinists teach and believe that Jesus only died for some of the sins of mankind - for the elect only.
Calvinists teach and believe that God forces people to believe in Jesus. - Irresistible grace.

They will argue with you ad ad infinitum.

Need I say more? They both came out of the era of the dark ages ...
One broke away from total idiocy of the RCC, and ran into a semblance of Biblical sense, (that was till needing some work).

grace and peace ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Pretty much agree. TULIP is nothing more than another ages old pack of Ill founded heresies.

 

[Genez]

So that is what the proud and arrogant think of helpless people: You mock the helpless and powerless with derogatory terms, i.e. "sock puppets"? Is that what the ancient, helpless Israelites were when they were in Egypt?

Its not I, who mock them.

Its your doctrine of Irresistible grace that does.

As you can see...
Defining what you profess ended up mocking them.

That is why many have a big problem with Theodor Beza's (not Calvin's) TULIP.

In Christ...

 

[cv5]

So that is what the proud and arrogant think of helpless people: You mock the helpless and powerless with derogatory terms, i.e. "sock puppets"? Is that what the ancient, helpless Israelites were when they were in Egypt?

Arrogantly condemning every Tom Dick and Harry to the Lake of fire is okay?

 

[Rufus]

Catholics teach and believe that the bread becomes the literal body of Jesus.
Catholics teach and believe that the wine becomes the literal blood of Jesus.
Catholics teach and believe that God waved his wand and transformed Mary into having no sin nature.

They will argue with you ad ad infinitum.

Now?

Calvinists teach and believe that Jesus only died for some of the sins of mankind - for the elect only.
Calvinists teach and believe that God forces people to believe in Jesus. - Irresistible grace.

They will argue with you ad ad infinitum.

Need I say more? They both came out of the era of the dark ages ...
One broke away from total idiocy of the RCC, and ran into a semblance of Biblical sense, (that was till needing some work).

grace and peace ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

So, when God graciously and mercifully rescues the helpless from the flames of hell, he's forcing them into heaven? When the Good |Samaritan rescued a helpless and all but dead Jew on the side of the road, he was forcing himself upon the crime victim?

Arminianism (a theological system that loudly and proudly touts "free" will) breeds some pretty sick ideas...

 

[brightfame52]

So, in the context of what I was responding to?
Which was -

Yes Gods Elect, but not just jews it includes Gentile elect also Acts 11:18​

​

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. ​

He has GIVEN them repentance?
In other words?
They are sock puppets???

Something was apparently lost in the translation of what was cited, if what you said is to apply.

There you go again, scoffing Gods Truth

 

[GWH]

Unfortunately, bringing Eph 1:3-23 to bear upon Rom 9 does not harmonize with Rom 9:16, which clearly teaches that man's will is not involved in God's sovereign decrees of election.

And I categorically reject the heresy that God is merely a potential savior! God actually SAVES all those whom he has predestined (also cf. Rom 8:28-30). He saved Issac and Jacob in Rom 9 by decreeing that they would participate in his covenant promises to Abraham, didn't he? But God also predestined that Ishmael and Esau would not participate in those covenant promises, so they remained the earthly, natural children of Abraham according to only the flesh.

Also, to be "in Christ" or "in Him" is precisely to be no longer in Adam since we're in the Last Adam. Don't forget: God ordained Adam to be the Federal Head of the entire human race; whereas the Last Adam is the Federal Head of all the Father has given to Him. Once a believer is in the Last Adam, he is no longer in the original Adam who is a type of Christ by contrasts.

As far as Deut 30:19 goes that command denotes man's moral responsibility which he cannot execute since [spiritual] LIFE is found only in the Lord per the text. Obviously, the spiritually dead have no ability to obey since all human beings come into this world SEPARATED from the Life of God, which is how everyone is spiritually dead! Death always logically presupposes antecedent life.

Okay, we can discuss RM 8:28-30 if you will explain how your interpretation affirms that God is all-loving per 1TM 2:3-4.

Isaac and Jacob in RM 9 merely refers to the human/natural ancestry of Christ, stating that it is not the natural descendants who are God's children. According to Paul in RM 2:28-29 & 4:9-12, not only Ishmael and Esau but also descendants of Isaac who are not spiritually circumcised by faith are not God's children.

Regarding Adam, Paul said in 1CR 15:22, "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive", with "all" meaning "those who belong to him" per v.23, which would be the elect, but it does not say whether they become elect by God forcing them to believe or they choose to believe and thereby become chosen.

Other Scriptures that relate to the topic of election include the following:

RM 3:9-18 says that all humanity are sinners or bent on sinning instead of following God’s law through which we become aware of sin, but it does NOT say, man is incapable of believing in Jesus and the Gospel, because the disobedience of Adam and Eve caused all humans to be born with an inherited sin nature and thus having a saving faith is against their very nature.

2TM 2:26 says that all unsaved humans are captive prisoners of Satan, bent on doing whatever he wants them to do, and LK 4:18 says that Jesus came to set the captives of Satan free.

ACTS 16:14 says that God opened Lydia’s heart so she could respond to Paul’s message, and surely everyone else needs God’s grace also, and JN 3:16 indicates that God gives everyone the grace to believe in Jesus and have saving faith.

JN 15:16 reports Jesus saying “You did not choose Me, but I chose you to bear fruit that will last.” MT 1:16 records Jesus choosing to call Simon, Andrew, James and John to follow him as disciples.

RM 9:11-16 says that God’s purpose in election is for salvation not to be by means of works or human effort but by God having mercy on whom He wants or chooses.

God wants all to be saved per 1TM 2:3-4, but apparently some, many and even most people reject His calling (MT 22:14).

2PT 3:9 says that God is not willing that any should perish, but wants everyone to repent, but 2THS 2:10 says some perish because they refused to love the truth and be saved.

RM 9:22-23 indicates that God could have chosen to condemn everyone to show his power, but some are shown mercy, presumably those who did NOT refuse to love the truth.

Those not chosen or shown mercy are given the justice they deserve, but the elect are saved as long as they persevere in loving the truth or having faith in Christ.

 

[Rufus]

Arrogantly condemning every Tom Dick and Harry to the Lake of fire is okay?

Lie much?. I never did such a thing. You should check your slandering at the door and leave it there. Don't you know that God hates liars (Ps 5:6; Prov 12:22) and that their destiny will be in the lake of fire (Rev 22:15)!?

 

[Rufus]

Okay, we can discuss RM 8:28-30 if you will explain how your interpretation affirms that God is all-loving per 1TM 2:3-4.

Isaac and Jacob in RM 9 merely refers to the human/natural ancestry of Christ, stating that it is not the natural descendants who are God's children. According to Paul in RM 2:28-29 & 4:9-12, not only Ishmael and Esau but also descendants of Isaac who are not spiritually circumcised by faith are not God's children.

Regarding Adam, Paul said in 1CR 15:22, "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive", with "all" meaning "those who belong to him" per v.23, which would be the elect, but it does not say whether they become elect by God forcing them to believe or they choose to believe and thereby become chosen.

Other Scriptures that relate to the topic of election include the following:

RM 3:9-18 says that all humanity are sinners or bent on sinning instead of following God’s law through which we become aware of sin, but it does NOT say, man is incapable of believing in Jesus and the Gospel, because the disobedience of Adam and Eve caused all humans to be born with an inherited sin nature and thus having a saving faith is against their very nature.

2TM 2:26 says that all unsaved humans are captive prisoners of Satan, bent on doing whatever he wants them to do, and LK 4:18 says that Jesus came to set the captives of Satan free.

ACTS 16:14 says that God opened Lydia’s heart so she could respond to Paul’s message, and surely everyone else needs God’s grace also, and JN 3:16 indicates that God gives everyone the grace to believe in Jesus and have saving faith.

JN 15:16 reports Jesus saying “You did not choose Me, but I chose you to bear fruit that will last.” MT 1:16 records Jesus choosing to call Simon, Andrew, James and John to follow him as disciples.

RM 9:11-16 says that God’s purpose in election is for salvation not to be by means of works or human effort but by God having mercy on whom He wants or chooses.

God wants all to be saved per 1TM 2:3-4, but apparently some, many and even most people reject His calling (MT 22:14).

2PT 3:9 says that God is not willing that any should perish, but wants everyone to repent, but 2THS 2:10 says some perish because they refused to love the truth and be saved.

RM 9:22-23 indicates that God could have chosen to condemn everyone to show his power, but some are shown mercy, presumably those who did NOT refuse to love the truth.

Those not chosen or shown mercy are given the justice they deserve, but the elect are saved as long as they persevere in loving the truth or having faith in Christ.

You keep regurgitating the same nonsense -- all out of context. I addressed earlier 2 Pet 3 and showed how it can't be referring to the world. Later, I'll address 1Tim 2:3-4 since I have also exegeted that passage in the recent past.

And what applies to Issac, Jacob, Ishmael and Esau in Rom 9 applies to all mankind! The two different kinds of "children" = the two lumps of clay that God makes out of one.

 

[Kroogz]

Replying to that post would be hazardous as doing so would expose their doctrine to the penetrating light of day
for all to see.

Jan 31, 2024
#171
Kroogz said:
What must I do to be saved?


ForestGreenCook
Well-known member
Jul 8, 20188,4411,213113

If you are referring to eternally, nothing.
~~~~~~~~

At least he was honest about it. The non-answers from the other posters on this thread say a LOT.

 

[cv5]

Lie much?. I never did such a thing. You should check your slandering at the door and leave it there. Don't you know that God hates liars (Ps 5:6; Prov 12:22) and that their destiny will be in the lake of fire (Rev 22:15)!?

Grow up......it's part of your doctrinal formula. Trotted out endlessly.

 

[cv5]

You keep regurgitating the same nonsense -- all out of context. I addressed earlier 2 Pet 3 and showed how it can't be referring to the world. Later, I'll address 1Tim 2:3-4 since I have also exegeted that passage in the recent past.

And what applies to Issac, Jacob, Ishmael and Esau in Rom 9 applies to all mankind! The two different kinds of "children" = the two lumps of clay that God makes out of one.

Romans is about choices made genius. By people and nations. And their implications. Practically the whole book.

 

[Kroogz]

Romans is about choices made genius. By people and nations. And their implications. Practically the whole book.

Yeppers.

They seem to forget that the clay stays pliable and moldable while on the potters wheel. Some get spoiled and restarted. Interesting note......God messed up and spoiled it? Nope. The clay has a mind of its own.

2 Tim 2~~20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, [a]sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.

 

[MeowFlower]

Good luck to those espousing Gods Gospel in this thread. Be aware that while God's Election runs through the whole of his word both Old and New myopic bigotry will insist you are a Calvinist if you defend that Biblical fact.

The unlearnable will never be taught otherwise. Therefore, God's words are a mystery to them. As he foretold. Same with Sabbath. Messianic observe Sabbath and will tell you why. It's Biblical.

Yet again myopic bigotry and the incapacity to be educated by God's words,and God told us why so don't be concerned about them, will insist you are SDA,Seventh Day Adventist.

When,just as with the fear and hatred here for the Reformed Doctrine accuses those who know scripture of being "Calvinists".

It is all the skeptic unbelievers know to throw at those in Christ. SDA! Calvinist!

Meanwhile those who are in Christ here realize where you are. And do not let anyone lead you into their hate and bigotry.

Hold to God's truth.

Just as Jesus said. The world "in here" hates you for holding to the Truth of God IN Christ.

Just as they in here and in the world hate/hated Jesus first.

 

[GWH]

You keep regurgitating the same nonsense -- all out of context. I addressed earlier 2 Pet 3 and showed how it can't be referring to the world. Later, I'll address 1Tim 2:3-4 since I have also exegeted that passage in the recent past.

And what applies to Issac, Jacob, Ishmael and Esau in Rom 9 applies to all mankind! The two different kinds of "children" = the two lumps of clay that God makes out of one.

No, YOUR view fails to make sense or explain how God's all-lovingness per 1TM 2:3-4, 2PT 3:9, MT 5:44&48 and other Scriptures harmonizes with His election/predestination.

You also need to harmonize RM 9:16-24 with RM 2:28-29 & 4:9-12.

 

[Genez]

So, when God graciously and mercifully rescues the helpless from the flames of hell, he's forcing them into heaven? When the Good |Samaritan rescued a helpless and all but dead Jew on the side of the road, he was forcing himself upon the crime victim?

Arminianism (a theological system that loudly and proudly touts "free" will) breeds some pretty sick ideas...

What I believe?

Its not about "free will."

Its about a "freed" will, caused by grace.

You are too buried the behind thick walls you keep shoveling higher and higher to be able to see what that means.

 

[Genez]

There you go again, scoffing Gods Truth

I must study more to see how Jesus reacted to the Pharisees.

 

[Kroogz]

Arrogantly condemning every Tom Dick and Harry to the Lake of fire is okay?

Samuel M. Zwemer, (expert on the Muslim mind)"The terminology of their teaching is Calvinistic, but its practical effect is pure fatalism. Most Muslim sects 'deny all free agency in man and say that man is necessarily constrained by the force of God's eternal and immutable decree to act as he does.' God wills both good and evil; there is no escaping from the caprice of His decree... Fatalism has paralyzed progress; hope perishes under the weight of this iron bondage..." (Religions of Mission Fields, pp. 224, 245)

And we can draw many parallels to Calvinism to this secular ideology~~

Materialistic psychology....... Dr. Thomas Szasz, Professor of Psychiatry Emeritus "The materialistic interpretation of nature, as the term implies, entails viewing all signs as the manifestations of physiochemical processes, such as human beings observe when they look at nature. Joy and sadness, fear and elation, anger, greed ... all human aspirations and passions ... are thus interpreted as the manifestations of unintentional, amoral, biochemical processes. In such a world, nothing is willed; everything happens" (Insanity...The Idea and Its Consequences, p. 350).

 

[Genez]

The key to breaking up this logger head?

How was God able to create each person's soul and angels, with knowing how they would choose?