Difference between Baptized with the Holy Ghost and being FILLED with the Holy Ghost vs
- Thread starter KelbyofGod
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
unit chapters and context and authorial intent, you are not understanding. 1cor 13:8-10 do not say the gift has ended; they say it will end when that which is perfect comes. Or complete. Man is incomplete until they have been glorified. Until then, we need the Holy Spirit Just as our Lord did when he was doing his earthly ministry. And Guess what? He was and is the Word of GOD, fully and completely.
I will follow Jesus' example and receive the empowerment of the Holy SPIRIT and all the gifts he has for the edification, comfort, and exhortation as HE sees fit. No, you're not canceled. You're Just unbiblical. And lack Biblical context.
I will follow Jesus' example and receive the empowerment of the Holy SPIRIT and all the gifts he has for the edification, comfort, and exhortation as HE sees fit. No, you're not canceled. You're Just unbiblical. And lack Biblical context.
-
1
- Show all
In JN 14:15-17, 15:26 & 16:12-15, Jesus indicates that the main function of the HS besides comforting is to lead his disciples into all the truth, NOT to enable them to perform miracles. Paul also taught disciples to LGW and walk by faith, NOT to demonstrate miraculous gifts. Thus, "that which is perfect" probably refers to the NT canon of Scripture written by the apostles being completed when they died.
-
2
- Show all
Sorry to inform you, but the Holy Spirit does far more than that. No one said the Holy Spirit was only to do miracles through the believer. Jesus said that. Those signs shall follow those who believe in my name, who will lay their hands on the sick and recover Mark 16.
I have seen God do this many times. Also, the Holy Spirit has Gifts recorded in 1cor Chapters 12 through 14.
"Thus, "that which is perfect" probably refers to the NT canon of Scripture written by the apostles being completed when they died."
LOL Probably? It sounds like you just added something to the word of God that was not absolutely said. That is error and unbiblical.
Attachments
Yea.. God can do as He wishes, but the GIFTS of prophecy, miracles, tongues knowledge have fulfilled their purpose with the completion of the canon, death of the apostles and establishment of the early churches.
Course... there are other gifts that have continued such as faith, hope and love.
I used to think gifts of evangelism and helps etc.. have also fulfilled their purpose..but am now questioning that since Ephesians 4 isn't really that conclusive a proof text.
Course... there are other gifts that have continued such as faith, hope and love.
I used to think gifts of evangelism and helps etc.. have also fulfilled their purpose..but am now questioning that since Ephesians 4 isn't really that conclusive a proof text.
At the moment of conversion/repentance or accepting Christ Jesus as Lord (ACTS 20:21), Jesus' Holy Spirit (HS) enters the convert's heart (RV 3:20), plugging the person into the power of God, which moment is called "baptism" (1CR 12:13). Because a person’s conversion/ commitment to Christ is in accordance with God’s perfect will and the response of yielding to His calling (1TM 2:3-4), the moment of spiritual baptism fulfills the command of Ephesians 5:18 to be filled (cooperate fully) with the Spirit.
Confusion may arise from the fact that in Ephesians 4:5 Paul says there is only one baptism, but elsewhere the NT seems to refer to two types of baptism: one by water and another by the Holy Spirit. Any confusion is resolved by understanding that the two types of baptism are harmonized if baptism with water is viewed as a symbolic way of portraying baptism by the Holy Spirit.
The outward evidence that someone is Spirit-filled (EPH 5:18) or walking with God is the manifestation of the fullness of Christ (EPH 3:19, 4:13) or fruit of the Spirit, which consists of such attributes as those listed in Galatians 5:22-23: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Jesus said “All men will know that you are my disciples if you love one another” (JN13:35, 1JN 4:7-21), because “love” sums up the moral character of God (1JN 4:7-8).
Paul exhorted Believers (in EPH 6:18) to pray in the Spirit, which means in accordance with God’s will, which requires knowing God’s Word (JN 15:7). Like bread and butter or romantic love and spiritual marriage, prayer and LGW go together. The basic prayer is for God’s will to be done/for the kingdom of heaven to come on earth in our lifetime as we partake of the bread of truth (MT 6:10-11), because we cannot live by physical bread (or prayer) alone; our souls need every word God speaks (MT 4:4). Jesus said that He is God’s way and the word/bread of life (JN 14:6, 6:35&63).
In JN 14:15-17, 15:26 & 16:12-15, Jesus indicates that the main function of the HS besides comforting is to lead his disciples into all the truth, NOT to enable them to perform miracles. Paul also taught disciples to LGW and walk by faith, NOT to demonstrate miraculous gifts. Thus, “when perfect comes” (1CR 13:10) probably refers to the NT canon of Scripture written by the apostles being completed when they died. The footnote in Bibles (saying that MK 16 is not a reliable or well-attested part of the NT canon but was added to GW) indicates that it is unScriptural to drink poison, handle asps and claim to cure cancer.
Some people say glossalalia or speaking in tongues is a sign of being Spirit-filled, but they fail to realize that the original miracle involved speaking earthly languages one had never learned (in ACTS 2:4-11). Acts 4:12 suggests or implies that baptism with the HS occurs even for pre-NT believers, though they also did not understand it, because there is no salvation outside of Christ’s ekklesia or church per ACTS 4:12. A superficial form of glossalalia was babbling in an unknown language that became problematic for Paul in the Corinthian church (1CR 14:1-19), which may be why he said that tongues will be stilled (13:8) and even prophecy (speaking for strengthening, encouraging and comfort per 14:3) will disappear.
Listen, The footnotes in my Bible do not say Mark 16 is not reliable. It's Italicized, which means it was added. The reason why it was added is not known.
So were chapters and verses added. In addition, the text doesn't take away from the original meaning or context.
Unless you think the passage just ended with
: 14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
You can mock and scoff and act like a buffoon if you like. The text doesn't say to go and drink poison or handle vipers unless you mean Pharisees, as Jesus called him. You cannot keep things in context, making the text seem unreasonable in the human rational. But not a Biblical one. I have prayed and asked God to heal many people with sickness, including cancer. What do you do when you go to the hospital to visit a sick person? Bring a shovel and dirt to throw in their face. Do you pray that God kills them instead of Heals them?
We are to pray for the Sick, as James 5 says, and the early church did. If you think praying for one who has cancer when the doctors have said they can do no more and asking God to heal them is wrong, that is you. Please don't ever visit me in the Hospital. I prefer an atheist bring me flowers than a dead, frozen, weak, non-paying Pharieeses.
I love how those say the prophetic word of God, Genesis to Revelation, when it was canonized, means the end of all gifts of the Holy Spirit.
But the canonization of all the books failed to see they should have been removed 1cor chapters 12 through 14 before they canonized the text. LOL.
WOW, Such powerful discernment LOL> I guess God knew better.
But the canonization of all the books failed to see they should have been removed 1cor chapters 12 through 14 before they canonized the text. LOL.
WOW, Such powerful discernment LOL> I guess God knew better.
we've been around this bush many times. The desiring of the gifts of tongues, prophecy and knowledge surely is there of course. And it is to the assembly at Corinth..for distribution to other churches.. then and there.
It may continue to now if there is nothing from the future of THAT time that affects those sign gifts.
But there is some things. The completed canon, death of the apostles and establishment of the early churches.
Scripture ..even in the NT is not always applied to us now .
You know this.
But anyways... this has been thrashed to death. I will disagree and leave it.
It may continue to now if there is nothing from the future of THAT time that affects those sign gifts.
But there is some things. The completed canon, death of the apostles and establishment of the early churches.
Scripture ..even in the NT is not always applied to us now .
You know this.
But anyways... this has been thrashed to death. I will disagree and leave it.
I respect that. Yes ,I do know things are not applied to us today. BUT that is not the context of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit We don't worship the bible we worship the Author. And we are told to pray in the Holy Spirit, which means by HIS leading, which means
The Gift of the Holy Spirit is working in the believer. I find it absolutely hilarious that when I ask the Cencessionist Pastor
Why did you become a pastor?
They will tell you God called me.
Really?
How did he do that? Is your name written in the New Testament? Is there a verse saying, " Hey, I want you to be a PASTOR ?
They will say I just knew it.
Really?
FYI, that is called a word of Knowledge
which is a gift of the Holy Spirit,
But if that gift is no longer valid, it must have been the flesh or pizza from last night or something like that, but not GOD.
The Gift of the Holy Spirit is working in the believer. I find it absolutely hilarious that when I ask the Cencessionist Pastor
Why did you become a pastor?
They will tell you God called me.
Really?
How did he do that? Is your name written in the New Testament? Is there a verse saying, " Hey, I want you to be a PASTOR ?
They will say I just knew it.
Really?
FYI, that is called a word of Knowledge
which is a gift of the Holy Spirit,
But if that gift is no longer valid, it must have been the flesh or pizza from last night or something like that, but not GOD.
Most scholars think that what was added after MK 16:8 is unreliable, especially v.17-18 saying that the signs of being believers in Christ include driving out demons, speaking in new tongues, handling asps and healing diseases, because that is not taught elsewhere in the more reliable parts of the NT.
Praying for the sick is NOT the sign cited in MK 16:18, no matter how much you mock and scoff at the sign cited in JN 13:35 and GL 5:22-23, etc. I usually pray for God's will to be done, as Jesus taught us in MT 6:10 & 26:39-42, but I never said that praying for healing is wrong, although in my own parents case I prayed for a painless passing without needing to suffer in a nursing home, which was their prayer--and our prayers were granted. Yay!
Don't worry, you seem like an unpleasant person to visit with in any context, including this one. Are you in pain?
Praying for the sick is NOT the sign cited in MK 16:18, no matter how much you mock and scoff at the sign cited in JN 13:35 and GL 5:22-23, etc. I usually pray for God's will to be done, as Jesus taught us in MT 6:10 & 26:39-42, but I never said that praying for healing is wrong, although in my own parents case I prayed for a painless passing without needing to suffer in a nursing home, which was their prayer--and our prayers were granted. Yay!
Don't worry, you seem like an unpleasant person to visit with in any context, including this one. Are you in pain?
Most liberal scholars most likely do. But lets say they were write
Jesus who is the Supreme Authority in all scripture even more than Paul said :
John 14:12
12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
Jesus, knowing that the Bible would be created as the Holy Spirit led them, why did not Jesus say the works I do, you also will do, but only until the canonization of all scripture is done. Then the Holy Spirit's gifts will not be needed, and you will not need to do the works that I did anymore. Just read the Bible and believe it.
Hypocxrices change the word of God to fix a bias, then, like liberal democrats, attack others and cause them to do what they do.
Jesus who is the Supreme Authority in all scripture even more than Paul said :
John 14:12
12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
Jesus, knowing that the Bible would be created as the Holy Spirit led them, why did not Jesus say the works I do, you also will do, but only until the canonization of all scripture is done. Then the Holy Spirit's gifts will not be needed, and you will not need to do the works that I did anymore. Just read the Bible and believe it.
Hypocxrices change the word of God to fix a bias, then, like liberal democrats, attack others and cause them to do what they do.
Scholars of GW note that Jesus also said JN 13:35, "All men will know that you are my disciples if you love one another", as well as MT 22:37-40 and 28:18-20, which do not indicate that miracle-working will be typical signs of faith, and scholars believe Jesus inspired Paul to write 1CR 13 that the greater way is to manifest the fruit of the Holy Spirit, such as those listed in GL 5:22-23, rather than performing greater miracles than Jesus did.
Thus, it does seem as though miracle-working was a temporary gift for the purpose of helping to boost belief in the Gospel until Christ's church was strong enough to spread GW by means of preaching-teaching-persuading utilizing the NT canon of Scripture.
You raise an interesting point though: Why didn't Jesus or other writers of Scripture clearly say things that would make most of CC moot: such as "abortion is wrong except to save the life of the mother" or "all killing is wrong, even in self-defense" or "predestination means that God is NOT all-loving but rather determined from the beginning to condemn most of humanity to hell" or "there will be no rapture" or "the human soul includes a body and a spirit" or "the Sabbath law including killing those who break it is still in force"; things like that!
Thus, it does seem as though miracle-working was a temporary gift for the purpose of helping to boost belief in the Gospel until Christ's church was strong enough to spread GW by means of preaching-teaching-persuading utilizing the NT canon of Scripture.
You raise an interesting point though: Why didn't Jesus or other writers of Scripture clearly say things that would make most of CC moot: such as "abortion is wrong except to save the life of the mother" or "all killing is wrong, even in self-defense" or "predestination means that God is NOT all-loving but rather determined from the beginning to condemn most of humanity to hell" or "there will be no rapture" or "the human soul includes a body and a spirit" or "the Sabbath law including killing those who break it is still in force"; things like that!
-
1
- Show all
verse 35 of john chapter 13,
Yes they will know you are my disciples by love. FYI the greek word there for Love is what ? agapē it is a supernatural love that is not carnal.
Prior to Jesus saying that he said :34
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another
the word love here is agapaō and is a verb
Love is to be demonstrated to a lost and dying world. Gods love that is. You take one verse leave the full context of the verse .
What did Jesus say prior and after verse 35 ? That why you are limited because you have a unbiblical bias.
What else did Jesus SAY ABOUT DEMINSTATION OF LOVE?
Matthew 25:35-40
35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
faith produces belief which leads to action that demonstrates Gods LOVE to people.
Yes they will know you are my disciples by love. FYI the greek word there for Love is what ? agapē it is a supernatural love that is not carnal.
Prior to Jesus saying that he said :34
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another
the word love here is agapaō and is a verb
Love is to be demonstrated to a lost and dying world. Gods love that is. You take one verse leave the full context of the verse .
What did Jesus say prior and after verse 35 ? That why you are limited because you have a unbiblical bias.
What else did Jesus SAY ABOUT DEMINSTATION OF LOVE?
Matthew 25:35-40
35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
faith produces belief which leads to action that demonstrates Gods LOVE to people.
I think that some nominally Christian people will experience the Holy Spirit and some will not. For some who claim to have that experience it may be simply a "good sermon," or an "inspiring hymn." For others, it may be a spontaenous "prophecy" or encouragement as though from God, or "speaking in tongues."
My own sense is that some people experience the Holy Spirit from afar, and are not really *in* the experience. They see and recognize Divine activity, but it doesn't take place in them. The Bible is more a book of moral truhs than ecstatic utterances directly from God, although lip service is paid to the apostles who are assumed to be different and superior to us.
But in my experience, raised a Christian from birth in a very dry denominational church, I experienced God "from afar" during my childhood and early adolescence. And it just got me confused in my teen years, when current trends competed with "archaic" Christian standards. I ended up in trouble with society and with the law.
Anyway, I repented and followed my conscience, going back to church and reading my Bible. And I came upon a verse in Acts where it said, "I give my Spirit to those who obey Me." I was instantly filled with the Spirit in the knowledge that God was pleased with my willingness to give up my "idols" and follow Him completely.
I got into Pentecostal circles where I was taught to "speak in tongues," but this never seemed real important to me--in fact it seemed artificial and more like "some have this gift and others don't." I didn't.
But as I went out into the streets and passed out Gospel tracts, God began speaking to me supernaturally in a "word of knowledge." I handed out a tract to a military guard at the entry to a military installation. Half a block away I *saw* God speaking to this person. I walked all the way back down there and asked him, "The Lord is speaking to you, isn't He?" And there he was, reading the tract, and nodding his head, yes.
I can't explain supernatural things--they either happen or I'm lying. You'll have to follow God all the way and then test to see if the Holy Spirit fills you. Mind you, I don't always feel "filled!" It comes and goes.
Being "baptized in the Holy Spirit" seems to have to do with the transition from OT age to NT age. Whereas John the Bapist baptized people to repent before Jesus finished his ministry, Spirit Baptism seems to be a baptism that follows accepting Jesus. It is just embracing Jesus as the new way of the NT age, and involves the Spirit indwelling our lives as confirmation that we now have Christian Salvation.
It is a replacement for the Law since we are in the NT now. But more, it is the means of showing the world this new way so that those who see and want it can realize it is available for them too. Unless there is a supernatural aspect to it, it will never be attractive to those who want to know and experience the Lord as their Savior. They need to know He exists. We can speak about our expeerience, but others will only "see it* if the Holy Spirit enables them. And He does!
My own sense is that some people experience the Holy Spirit from afar, and are not really *in* the experience. They see and recognize Divine activity, but it doesn't take place in them. The Bible is more a book of moral truhs than ecstatic utterances directly from God, although lip service is paid to the apostles who are assumed to be different and superior to us.
But in my experience, raised a Christian from birth in a very dry denominational church, I experienced God "from afar" during my childhood and early adolescence. And it just got me confused in my teen years, when current trends competed with "archaic" Christian standards. I ended up in trouble with society and with the law.
Anyway, I repented and followed my conscience, going back to church and reading my Bible. And I came upon a verse in Acts where it said, "I give my Spirit to those who obey Me." I was instantly filled with the Spirit in the knowledge that God was pleased with my willingness to give up my "idols" and follow Him completely.
I got into Pentecostal circles where I was taught to "speak in tongues," but this never seemed real important to me--in fact it seemed artificial and more like "some have this gift and others don't." I didn't.
But as I went out into the streets and passed out Gospel tracts, God began speaking to me supernaturally in a "word of knowledge." I handed out a tract to a military guard at the entry to a military installation. Half a block away I *saw* God speaking to this person. I walked all the way back down there and asked him, "The Lord is speaking to you, isn't He?" And there he was, reading the tract, and nodding his head, yes.
I can't explain supernatural things--they either happen or I'm lying. You'll have to follow God all the way and then test to see if the Holy Spirit fills you. Mind you, I don't always feel "filled!" It comes and goes.
Being "baptized in the Holy Spirit" seems to have to do with the transition from OT age to NT age. Whereas John the Bapist baptized people to repent before Jesus finished his ministry, Spirit Baptism seems to be a baptism that follows accepting Jesus. It is just embracing Jesus as the new way of the NT age, and involves the Spirit indwelling our lives as confirmation that we now have Christian Salvation.
It is a replacement for the Law since we are in the NT now. But more, it is the means of showing the world this new way so that those who see and want it can realize it is available for them too. Unless there is a supernatural aspect to it, it will never be attractive to those who want to know and experience the Lord as their Savior. They need to know He exists. We can speak about our expeerience, but others will only "see it* if the Holy Spirit enables them. And He does!