Understanding God’s election

[Jimbone]

Here let me chime in:

Because they REPEAT THE LIE(S) OF SATAN.
Over and over again.

Those very same lies which caused the Woman to fall. And those same lies that FAILED to cause Adam to fall.
Those very same lies that caused 1/3 of the angels to fall.
And those very same lies which even Michael was incapable of contending with.

[Jde 1:9 KJV]
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Yes, this is WAAAAAAYYYYY over your head because most Churches today are failing in their mandate to teach.
But.....I have already posted the requisite critical lecture studies and nobody (of the Calvinite ilk) CHOOSES to hear them.

Too bad so sad.

Yea but that's according to what YOU say they believe and they way you think of it. They way you present their belief is a strawman of your making. I have never once seen anyone debating the beliefs you claim they hold. To be honest I see more people called Calvinist here on CC that say they are not Calvinist at all, and have never read anything by John Calvin, yet have the most radical view presented in the worst way possible applied to them as if they said it themselves.

I see a LOT of this and NEVER do I see anyone making or supporting the viewpoints you say they do. If anyone says or believes anything you think sounds Calvinistic to your ear, they are labeled as one and every viewpoint you know of and condemn from Calvinism is applied right to the person. It's just bad faith argumentation. I thing Calvinism is WAY worse and bigger in your head than it is in real life. It's CDS, Calvin Derangement Syndrome.

For example in this reply you gave me no answer to why you get to accuse others of being self righteous for sharing their belief, yet you are not self righteous for sharing yours. I just do not understand why you think you are the default winner and have the authority to declare these things.

 

[HeIsHere]

Sure it is. Animals largely run by instinct. Preprogramming. Humans maintain the ability to think and reason, but their cognitive processes have been made subject to corruption. They maintain the ability to choose, but their choices are markedly different given the corruption.

It is God's loving, gracious provision, to ALL humanity that people are born able to respond by their own volition, positively through the truth and power inherent in the Gospel message.

Man's fallen nature has not removed his moral ability or willingness to believe the TRUTH.

Belief in Christ is a personal one time matter, the faith that one has put in Jesus pleases God.

End of story.

 

[HeIsHere]

Yea but that's according to what YOU say they believe and they way you think of it. They way you present their belief is a strawman of your making. I have never once seen anyone debating the beliefs you claim they hold. To be honest I see more people called Calvinist here on CC that say they are not Calvinist at all, and have never read anything by John Calvin, yet have the most radical view presented in the worst way possible applied to them as if they said it themselves.

I see a LOT of this and NEVER do I see anyone making or supporting the viewpoints you say they do. If anyone says or believes anything you think sounds Calvinistic to your ear, they are labeled as one and every viewpoint you know of and condemn from Calvinism is applied right to the person. It's just bad faith argumentation. I thing Calvinism is WAY worse and bigger in your head than it is in real life. It's CDS, Calvin Derangement Syndrome.

For example in this reply you gave me no answer to why you get to accuse others of being self righteous for sharing their belief, yet you are not self righteous for sharing yours. I just do not understand why you think you are the default winner and have the authority to declare these things.

Anyone who denies that mankind has the moral ability to respond to the Gospel positively based on the power and truth of the message of the Gospel and insists that personal belief must be given by God personally at the point/moment of salvation because they cannot otherwise respond positively is a "calvinist" I gladly take the "provisionist' label.

You can call it another thing of you would like, it is used because it is a good short cut descriptor for the this central wrong doctrine!

 

[Cameron143]

It is God's loving, gracious provision, to ALL humanity that people are born able to respond by their own volition, positively through the truth and power inherent in the Gospel message.

Man's fallen nature has not removed his moral ability or willingness to believe the TRUTH.

Belief in Christ is a personal one time matter, the faith that one has put in Jesus pleases God.

End of story.

If it's so easy, why does faith only proceed from hearing, and hearing only from the word of God? Why does salvation require a birth from above? Why is it necessary for God to draw people to Himself? Why is the church only grown through revelation from the Father?
Sounds a little more complicated than you suggest.

 

[Jimbone]

We are not born saved, but we are born separated from God (spiritually dead) but with the ability to morally respond positively to the truth and power of the Gospel.
This is God's provision to all humanity, the ability to respond positively and willingly!!!

This I agree with, we are born spiritually disconnected from God, not because we've physically sinned yet, but because we are born broken in Adams sin. We are ALL born like this since the fall. This is being born a sinner. I can understand why people don't like to say it like this because the baby doesn't "choose" this and doesn't even have the capability to knowingly sin yet. This doesn't change the fact we are all born sinners.

Now does that baby go to hell? The bible doesn't specifically address the issue head on, but I feel very confident that the God I know, by His actions and sacrifices to reconcile mankind to Himself, and His unchanging nature lead me to believe that no baby will be in hell, but not because what they did or didn't do, but like everyone, because He is just and merciful and through Jesus I believe those babies live. Again I know we disagree, I believe ALL God NONE man, and you believe we get a little credit and there are some things that we have to do in order to be saved. For me it's salvation=100% God 0% me. You think salvation=99% or less God 1% or more you.
I don't believe His word says we get any credit, glory or thing to boast in. However I honestly this is more a difference of perspective than any kind of Church fracturing issue.

 

[HeIsHere]

If it's so easy, why does faith only proceed from hearing, and hearing only from the word of God?

Faith is not a mystical or virtue, you cannot believe something until you know about it and in those days it was typically audible.

Why does salvation require a birth from above?

Of course not argument there. It is preceded by personal belief in the Gospel message and in the in the offer of Jesus of the gift of salvation.

Why is the church only grown through revelation from the Father?

Do you have a specific verse I will exegete it for you.

Sounds a little more complicated than you suggest.

Yes sadly most people for various, multitudinous, immeasurable reasons find it a challenge to believe in something so good!
So yes very complicated but not for the reasons you think.

 

[HeIsHere]

This I agree with, we are born spiritually disconnected from God, not because we've physically sinned yet, but because we are born broken in Adams sin. We are ALL born like this since the fall. This is being born a sinner. I can understand why people don't like to say it like this because the baby doesn't "choose" this and doesn't even have the capability to knowingly sin yet. This doesn't change the fact we are all born sinners.

Now does that baby go to hell? The bible doesn't specifically address the issue head on, but I feel very confident that the God I know, by His actions and sacrifices to reconcile mankind to Himself, and His unchanging nature lead me to believe that no baby will be in hell, but not because what they did or didn't do, but like everyone, because He is just and merciful and through Jesus I believe those babies live. Again I know we disagree, I believe ALL God NONE man, and you believe we get a little credit and there are some things that we have to do in order to be saved. For me it's salvation=100% God 0% me. You think salvation=99% or less God 1% or more you.
I don't believe His word says we get any credit, glory or thing to boast in. However I honestly this is more a difference of perspective than any kind of Church fracturing issue.

I agree with some of what you write.
I would say it is still all God, but man must believe to receive it.
One cannot receive unless one believes it is real/true.

There is no merit in belief, it is a yielding to the truth of the Gospel, but it is a condition. And because it is a condition for all men throughout all time no one can boast.
We all enter through the same door.... exercising FAITH in Christ Jesus and His promises and truth.

Faith is not in and of itself supernatural, salvation is supernatural.
Now after salvation God does strengthen faith supernaturally for His purposes, we see this in scripture quite often.

 

[Rufus]

The unregenerate can know he sins!​

And Pharaoh sent and called for Moses and Aaron, and said to them, ​

“I have sinned this time. The Lord is righteous, and my people and I are wicked.​

​

Exodus 9:27 New King James Version​

​

​

​

Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron in haste, and said, “I have sinned against ​

the Lord your God and against you.​

​

Exodus 10:16 New King James Version​

........

No one here ever denied that the unregenerate don't have the knowledge of good and evil. Knowing good and evil, knowing right from wrong doesn't mean that a person has any intrinsic power to change his nature or to stop sinning. Pharaoh indeed knew right from wrong but where did that lead him? I believe I read somewhere he ended up on the bottom of the Red Sea. Why? Because when God "came down" to "rescue" his helpless chosen people, Pharaoh and his people were not on God's redemption list.

 

[Genez]

A unregenerate person is dead to God, dead in sin

Eph 2:5

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Wow.... your concept of what it means to be dead to sin.... 'stinketh.'

And Pharaoh sent and called for Moses and Aaron, and said to them,
“I have sinned this time.
The Lord is righteous, and my people and I are wicked.

Exodus 9:27 New King James Version



Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron in haste, and said,
“I have sinned against the Lord your God and against you.

Exodus 10:16 New King James Version
​

 

[Rufus]

I agree with some of what you write.
I would say it is still all God, but man must believe to receive it.
One cannot receive unless one believes it is real/true.

There is no merit in belief, it is a yielding to the truth of the Gospel, but it is a condition. And because it is a condition for all men throughout all time no one can boast.
We all enter through the same door.... exercising FAITH in Christ Jesus and His promises and truth.

Faith is not in and of itself supernatural, salvation is supernatural.
Now after salvation God does strengthen faith supernaturally for His purposes, we see this in scripture quite often.

False! Faith is a supernatural gift from God!

What does any man receive that has not been gifted to him by God, including faith and repentance (Eph 2:8-10; Act 15:9; 18:27; 1Tim 1:14; 1Pet 1:3-5; 1Cor 4:7)!?

 

[Cameron143]

Faith is not a mystical or virtue, you cannot believe something until you know about it and in those days it was typically audible.



Of course not argument there. It is preceded by personal belief in the Gospel message and in the in the offer of Jesus of the gift of salvation.


Do you have a specific verse I will exegete it for you.



Yes sadly most people for various, multitudinous, immeasurable reasons find it a challenge to believe in something so good!
So yes very complicated but not for the reasons you think.

Faith itself isn't mystical; faith in God is. It requires both the word of God and the Spirit of God. There is an interaction between the gospel, the Spirit, and the individual that produces faith in God. So it's not a mere comprehension of biblical truth that will culminate in faith in Christ. If this were all that is necessary, any mere exposition of scripture would save all that heard it. This is not the case.
Second, the Spirit of God is active in an individual before faith is realized. It is His activity utilizing the word of God that produces faith.You would do well to understand the estate of fallen man that has been made known here ad nauseum. To deny man's fallen estate is the primary cause of your error.
Further, this is why you are wrong about what the grace of God consists in. At the fall, man didn't improve but rather became less than his former self. The grace of God is indeed the ability to understand the gospel and respond in faith. But it is not a common grace, but the grace that results in salvation.
Read Matthew 16 for the understanding that the church is built through the revelation of the Father to an individual of the person of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Jimbone]

Anyone who denies that mankind has the moral ability to respond to the Gospel positively based on the power and truth of the message of the Gospel and insists that personal belief must be given by God personally at the point/moment of salvation because they cannot otherwise respond positively is a "calvinist" I gladly take the "provisionist' label.

You can call it another thing of you would like, it is used because it is a good short cut descriptor for the this central wrong doctrine!

Yeah, but this is my point, you don't listen to what the other person says anyway, you decide what they believe, separate from them or even their comments sometime. For example I have NEVER in my life heard anyone, Calvinist or not, argue that we don't respond to Gods grace. See you make up the problem then swoop into save us from what YOU say we believe. That we don't believe. Nor are we what you label us as. How you are not understanding what I'm saying baffles me. One more time, can you please share with me the source of authority you claim to label others self righteous when they share their beliefs but when you share yours it is not self righteousness. Please tell everyone why you are exempt from your own standard.

 

[Rufus]

Yea but that's according to what YOU say they believe and they way you think of it. They way you present their belief is a strawman of your making. I have never once seen anyone debating the beliefs you claim they hold. To be honest I see more people called Calvinist here on CC that say they are not Calvinist at all, and have never read anything by John Calvin, yet have the most radical view presented in the worst way possible applied to them as if they said it themselves.

I see a LOT of this and NEVER do I see anyone making or supporting the viewpoints you say they do. If anyone says or believes anything you think sounds Calvinistic to your ear, they are labeled as one and every viewpoint you know of and condemn from Calvinism is applied right to the person. It's just bad faith argumentation. I thing Calvinism is WAY worse and bigger in your head than it is in real life. It's CDS, Calvin Derangement Syndrome.

For example in this reply you gave me no answer to why you get to accuse others of being self righteous for sharing their belief, yet you are not self righteous for sharing yours. I just do not understand why you think you are the default winner and have the authority to declare these things.

It's because he's so full of himself that he believes he has that authority. We mustn't forget that by CV5's own admission, he's one learned dude -- just like the Pharisees, scribes and teachers of the Law in Jesus' day.

 

[Genez]

It is illogical as well as unbiblical to maintain that a soul who does not know he is sinning is sinning. Paul explains quite clearly in RM 7:7-13 and GL 3:19-25 that the law was given so that souls WOULD know they were sinners.

The Law defined what man was instinctively doing all along.
But, now. Made man aware of sin by defining what it was that he was doing!

 

[cv5]

Yea but that's according to what YOU say they believe and they way you think of it. They way you present their belief is a strawman of your making. I have never once seen anyone debating the beliefs you claim they hold. To be honest I see more people called Calvinist here on CC that say they are not Calvinist at all, and have never read anything by John Calvin, yet have the most radical view presented in the worst way possible applied to them as if they said it themselves.

I see a LOT of this and NEVER do I see anyone making or supporting the viewpoints you say they do. If anyone says or believes anything you think sounds Calvinistic to your ear, they are labeled as one and every viewpoint you know of and condemn from Calvinism is applied right to the person. It's just bad faith argumentation. I thing Calvinism is WAY worse and bigger in your head than it is in real life. It's CDS, Calvin Derangement Syndrome.

For example in this reply you gave me no answer to why you get to accuse others of being self righteous for sharing their belief, yet you are not self righteous for sharing yours. I just do not understand why you think you are the default winner and have the authority to declare these things.

It is clear to me that you have yet to confront and understand the CRITICAL STUDY of the 5 fold lies of Satan (actually more).

And when you do, Calvinite super-determinism and fatalism is betrayed for the snake oil that it really is.

The 5 Fold Lies of Satan. FF to about 50 mins onward for an introduction.
https://www.sermonaudio.com/solo/cliffside/sermons/9101132540/

Amazing truths. Then dig in and complete the other 20-30 hours of lectures required to truly grasp the profound gravitas of the topic.

 

[cv5]

It's because he's so full of himself that he believes he has that authority. We mustn't forget that by CV5's own admission, he's one learned dude -- just like the Pharisees, scribes and teachers of the Law in Jesus' day.

I have little use for psychiatry. Or willful ignorance.

 

[Genez]

Awesome. My teacher was(He passed recently) Robert McLaughlin. Ordained by The Colonel. We also have a lot of Thiemes tapes. Great teachers!

Like you, We learned more in one hour than we had in 10 years in our little rural church.

I went to the same Bible college with Bob... He used to live in a room at the end of the dorm I lived in.
I also attended some of the conferences in Rhode Island when I was living in Massachusetts.

Sweet sadness to hear he is now in Heaven. Did not know.

grace and peace .......

 

[Genez]

False! Faith is a supernatural gift from God!

What does any man receive that has not been gifted to him by God, including faith and repentance (Eph 2:8-10; Act 15:9; 18:27; 1Tim 1:14; 1Pet 1:3-5; 1Cor 4:7)!?

Faith comes by hearing the Word of God!
Simple. Romans 10:17.

​

"So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ/God."​

What one believes and accurately understands of Scripture? That becomes his faith.

It's what counts with God.

 

[Genez]

It's because he's so full of himself that he believes he has that authority. We mustn't forget that by CV5's own admission, he's one learned dude -- just like the Pharisees, scribes and teachers of the Law in Jesus' day.

"Dude?"

How old are you?

 

[Genez]

It's because he's so full of himself that he believes he has that authority. We mustn't forget that by CV5's own admission, he's one learned dude -- just like the Pharisees, scribes and teachers of the Law in Jesus' day.

And, you are not a learned dude?

You are uneducated?