Understanding God’s election
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You desperately need a new pastor. I suppose he, too, thinks he's worthy of God's great gift of eternal life? 
It is God who decreed the two seeds in Gen 3:15 and it is God who decrees all who belong to the Woman's godly seed and all who belong to the Serpent's ungodly seed. And that is precisely what happened in Gen 3:15. God sovereignly reconciled Eve to himself, whereas Adam is very conspicuously M.I.A. in the passage -- meaning Adam either wasn't part of anyone's seed (making him neither godly or ungodly ) or the passage implies by Adam's omission that God didn't reconcile him to himself which means he was relegated to the Serpent's seed. And that's the way it's always been ever since.
More solid proof for what I just stated is in Romans 9 to wit:
Rom 9:21-24
21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath — prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
NIV
The two seeds in Genesis become two lumps of clay in Romans made from ONE lump[ (signifying no initial inherently spiritual difference between the two lumps until God supernaturally transforms one lump into his New Creation which God uses for noble purposes). Man's great, awesome, mighty and sovereign "free" will is nowhere to be found in this chapter. Ishmael and Esau did not get to choose their spiritual destiny anymore than Issac and Jacob did theirs.
Moreover, your pastor is ignorant of the unilateral, unconditional promises of the New Covenant. No mere mortal decides that he wants to have fellowship with God. It's God's sovereign choice to bring his elect into a personal, covenant relationship with himself. That is his RIGHT -- not man's!
Tell your pastor that if he had a modicum of decency, he'd resign in shame instead of continuing to pervert God's Word. Obviously, your "good teacher" forgot what Jn 3:18 teaches. All fallen mankind are by NATURE objects of God's wrath (Eph 2:3)!
You desperately need a new pastor. I suppose he, too, thinks he's worthy of God's great gift of eternal life?
It is God who decreed the two seeds in Gen 3:15 and it is God who decrees all who belong to the Woman's godly seed and all who belong to the Serpent's ungodly seed. And that is precisely what happened in Gen 3:15. God sovereignly reconciled Eve to himself, whereas Adam is very conspicuously M.I.A. in the passage -- meaning Adam either wasn't part of anyone's seed (making him neither godly or ungodly ) or the passage implies by Adam's omission that God didn't reconcile him to himself which means he was relegated to the Serpent's seed. And that's the way it's always been ever since.
More solid proof for what I just stated is in Romans 9 to wit:
Rom 9:21-24
21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath — prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
NIV
The two seeds in Genesis become two lumps of clay in Romans made from ONE lump[ (signifying no initial inherently spiritual difference between the two lumps until God supernaturally transforms one lump into his New Creation which God uses for noble purposes). Man's great, awesome, mighty and sovereign "free" will is nowhere to be found in this chapter. Ishmael and Esau did not get to choose their spiritual destiny anymore than Issac and Jacob did theirs.
Moreover, your pastor is ignorant of the unilateral, unconditional promises of the New Covenant. No mere mortal decides that he wants to have fellowship with God. It's God's sovereign choice to bring his elect into a personal, covenant relationship with himself. That is his RIGHT -- not man's!
Tell your pastor that if he had a modicum of decency, he'd resign in shame instead of continuing to pervert God's Word. Obviously, your "good teacher" forgot what Jn 3:18 teaches. All fallen mankind are by NATURE objects of God's wrath (Eph 2:3)!
P.S. But I do agree with your pastor that each and every one us, being in Adam's loins, as it were, participated in his sin. This is why Adam's sin is imputed to all his posterity.
It is God who decreed the two seeds in Gen 3:15 and it is God who decrees all who belong to the Woman's godly seed and all who belong to the Serpent's ungodly seed. And that is precisely what happened in Gen 3:15. God sovereignly reconciled Eve to himself, whereas Adam is very conspicuously M.I.A. in the passage -- meaning Adam either wasn't part of anyone's seed (making him neither godly or ungodly
) or the passage implies by Adam's omission that God didn't reconcile him to himself which means he was relegated to the Serpent's seed. And that's the way it's always been ever since.More solid proof for what I just stated is in Romans 9 to wit:
Rom 9:21-24
21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath — prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
NIV
The two seeds in Genesis become two lumps of clay in Romans made from ONE lump[ (signifying no initial inherently spiritual difference between the two lumps until God supernaturally transforms one lump into his New Creation which God uses for noble purposes). Man's great, awesome, mighty and sovereign "free" will is nowhere to be found in this chapter.
Ishmael and Esau did not get to choose their spiritual destiny anymore than Issac and Jacob did theirs.Moreover, your pastor is ignorant of the unilateral, unconditional promises of the New Covenant. No mere mortal decides that he wants to have fellowship with God. It's God's sovereign choice to bring his elect into a personal, covenant relationship with himself. That is his RIGHT -- not man's!
Tell your pastor that if he had a modicum of decency, he'd resign in shame instead of continuing to pervert God's Word. Obviously, your "good teacher" forgot what Jn 3:18 teaches. All fallen mankind are by NATURE objects of God's wrath (Eph 2:3)!
You desperately need a new pastor. I suppose he, too, thinks he's worthy of God's great gift of eternal life?
It is God who decreed the two seeds in Gen 3:15 and it is God who decrees all who belong to the Woman's godly seed and all who belong to the Serpent's ungodly seed. And that is precisely what happened in Gen 3:15. God sovereignly reconciled Eve to himself, whereas Adam is very conspicuously M.I.A. in the passage -- meaning Adam either wasn't part of anyone's seed (making him neither godly or ungodly
) or the passage implies by Adam's omission that God didn't reconcile him to himself which means he was relegated to the Serpent's seed. And that's the way it's always been ever since.More solid proof for what I just stated is in Romans 9 to wit:
Rom 9:21-24
21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath — prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
NIV
The two seeds in Genesis become two lumps of clay in Romans made from ONE lump[ (signifying no initial inherently spiritual difference between the two lumps until God supernaturally transforms one lump into his New Creation which God uses for noble purposes). Man's great, awesome, mighty and sovereign "free" will is nowhere to be found in this chapter.
Ishmael and Esau did not get to choose their spiritual destiny anymore than Issac and Jacob did theirs.Moreover, your pastor is ignorant of the unilateral, unconditional promises of the New Covenant. No mere mortal decides that he wants to have fellowship with God. It's God's sovereign choice to bring his elect into a personal, covenant relationship with himself. That is his RIGHT -- not man's!
Tell your pastor that if he had a modicum of decency, he'd resign in shame instead of continuing to pervert God's Word. Obviously, your "good teacher" forgot what Jn 3:18 teaches. All fallen mankind are by NATURE objects of God's wrath (Eph 2:3)!
P.S. But I do agree with your pastor that each and every one us, being in Adam's loins, as it were, participated in his sin. This is why Adam's sin is imputed to all his posterity.
Really? Jacob is NOT WILLING huh? According to you Jacob has no will. At all. Zero.
And neither did Esau.
Which of course is utterly preposterous.
So Romans 9 to you is "wrongheaded unbiblical nonsense?
You truly don't read too swell, do you? Jacob desired a covenant relationship with God because GOD ORDAINED his salvation in eternity! Likewise, Esau forsook his birthright because God did not ordain his salvation. God simply left Esau to his own evil devices.
Also, you're clueless when it comes to applying sound hermeneutical principles to scripture, most especially the NT! You and others continue to read the OT back into the New, which is backwards. Newsflash: We're in the New Covenant Age in which "all things are new". Therefore, we must understand the OT in light of progressive NC revelation.
I am in no way denying that Jacob and Esau made real time spiritual choices in temporal reality. But those choices were ordained in eternity by God. God sovereignly and graciously decreed Jacob's salvation, while simultaneously denying Esau's! And that does NOT make God unjust, partial or arbitrary. Since God could have justly left all men to their wickedness, then it follows logically that he can just as righteously leave most to their evil devices while choosing many to redeem. When God "came down" to "rescue" Abraham's descendants from Pharaoh, did he offer salvation to any Egyptian?
What part of Rom 9:16 don't you get -- besides the entire verse? Salvation ultimately is not contingent on man's choices. It does not depend on the man who wills or runs! But it does depend entirely on God who has mercy. And this, sir, is the gospel that you appear to hate with every fiber of your being. But this is what Paul taught in Rom 9.
Besides, don't you know that man's way is NOT in himself! If you want to appeal to the OT, then appeal to relevant passages.
Jer 10:23
23 I know, O LORD, that a man's way is not in himself;
Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps.
NASB
You truly don't read too swell, do you? Jacob desired a covenant relationship with God because GOD ORDAINED his salvation in eternity! Likewise, Esau forsook his birthright because God did not ordain his salvation. God simply left Esau to his own evil devices.
Also, you're clueless when it comes to applying sound hermeneutical principles to scripture, most especially the NT! You and others continue to read the OT back into the New, which is backwards. Newsflash: We're in the New Covenant Age in which "all things are new". Therefore, we must understand the OT in light of progressive NC revelation.
I am in no way denying that Jacob and Esau made real time spiritual choices in temporal reality. But those choices were ordained in eternity by God. God sovereignly and graciously decreed Jacob's salvation, while simultaneously denying Esau's! And that does NOT make God unjust, partial or arbitrary. Since God could have justly left all men to their wickedness, then it follows logically that he can just as righteously leave most to their evil devices while choosing many to redeem. When God "came down" to "rescue" Abraham's descendants from Pharaoh, did he offer salvation to any Egyptian?
What part of Rom 9:16 don't you get -- besides the entire verse?
Salvation ultimately is not contingent on man's choices. It does not depend on the man who wills or runs! But it does depend entirely on God who has mercy. And this, sir, is the gospel that you appear to hate with every fiber of your being. But this is what Paul taught in Rom 9.Besides, don't you know that man's way is NOT in himself! If you want to appeal to the OT, then appeal to relevant passages.
Jer 10:23
23 I know, O LORD, that a man's way is not in himself;
Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps.
NASB
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How long will you love your simple-minded ways? Again, no one is denying that Jacob and Esau didn't make spiritual choices. They made the choices God destined in eternity for them to make. God made Jacob WILLING in the day of his power (Ps 110:3). Conversely, God gave no saving grace to Esau; therefore, Esau's wicked heart could only choose that which was evil.
Romans 9:19-21 One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why did You make me like this?” Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use?
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1 Corinthians 4:7b; John 3:27; Romans 9:15-16 What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did also receive it, why do you boast as not having received it? John replied, "A man can receive only that which is given him from heaven." "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then, it does not depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
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Romans 9:19-21 One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why did You make me like this?” Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use?
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Oh, I know! I speak to one who while professing to be a Christian, claims God is unfair, and the same one
applauds such ideas as God kidnaps people against their will if He acts unilaterally. They tried to guilt
shame me recently by pointing out that they rarely say anything to me as if that should stop me from
responding to all their lies, and they do blatantly lie. They are one of the ones who says man is not so
bad despite all the Biblical evidence given to the contrary, including man being so evil God wiped all but
eight off the face of the Earth at one time. It is sometimes a little surprising that so many believe the
natural man is able of doing the very things Scripture proclaims him incapable of, without help from God.
i affirm that God circumcised my heart, my ears, opened my eyes, and raised me to new life while I was dead.
I did not choose to believe in Him while I was blinded by the god of this world, taken captive to the will of
the devil, and hostile in my mind toward Him.
applauds such ideas as God kidnaps people against their will if He acts unilaterally. They tried to guilt
shame me recently by pointing out that they rarely say anything to me as if that should stop me from
responding to all their lies, and they do blatantly lie. They are one of the ones who says man is not so
bad despite all the Biblical evidence given to the contrary, including man being so evil God wiped all but
eight off the face of the Earth at one time. It is sometimes a little surprising that so many believe the
natural man is able of doing the very things Scripture proclaims him incapable of, without help from God.
i affirm that God circumcised my heart, my ears, opened my eyes, and raised me to new life while I was dead.
I did not choose to believe in Him while I was blinded by the god of this world, taken captive to the will of
the devil, and hostile in my mind toward Him.
Prayers make you one with God in what He wants to cause to happen in your life.
If you are praying in God's will?
God will cause you to be able to believe it will come to pass.
You will privately know it will come to pass.
Now, if someone tries to force his believing it will come to pass?
After a while, he will begin to think prayer is a flawed process after prayers are not answered.
Praying. and finding yourself able to believe it? Effortlessly?
Is the Spirit bearing witness to your heart that it is God's will.
Prayer in that good sense...
Is like being one's own personal prophet, but only concerning your own witness.
In contrast to prayer being private prophesying?
A prophet is a person being prophetic about external things, or people, when he prophesies.
He knows things will come to pass, without first praying for it to happen.
I tell you, you can pray for anything,
and if you believe that you’ve received it,
it will be yours.' Mark 11:24
If you are praying in God's will?
God will cause you to be able to believe it will come to pass.
You will privately know it will come to pass.
Now, if someone tries to force his believing it will come to pass?
After a while, he will begin to think prayer is a flawed process after prayers are not answered.
Praying. and finding yourself able to believe it? Effortlessly?
Is the Spirit bearing witness to your heart that it is God's will.
Prayer in that good sense...
Is like being one's own personal prophet, but only concerning your own witness.
In contrast to prayer being private prophesying?
A prophet is a person being prophetic about external things, or people, when he prophesies.
He knows things will come to pass, without first praying for it to happen.
Another thought occurred to me (thanks to the Holy Spirit) re Rom 9:21 which reads:
Rom 9:21
21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
NIV
I see Paul alluding to the Genesis 3 post-fall account in this passage because the making of two lumps out of one is precisely what occurred in the creation and post-fall accounts. Adam was created from the dust of the earth; but Eve wasn't! Eve was created directly from Adam, which means God created her from the same "lump of clay" in which Adam was created. Therefore, since the preponderance of biblical evidence clearly points to Eve's salvation (for God reconciled her to Himself), and to Adam's condemnation (since he was not of the Woman's godly seed), these two individuals were created by God for different purposes. Eve was created for noble (spiritually eternal) purposes, whereas Adam was created for common (or earthly) purposes.
Rom 9:21
21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
NIV
I see Paul alluding to the Genesis 3 post-fall account in this passage because the making of two lumps out of one is precisely what occurred in the creation and post-fall accounts. Adam was created from the dust of the earth; but Eve wasn't! Eve was created directly from Adam, which means God created her from the same "lump of clay" in which Adam was created. Therefore, since the preponderance of biblical evidence clearly points to Eve's salvation (for God reconciled her to Himself), and to Adam's condemnation (since he was not of the Woman's godly seed), these two individuals were created by God for different purposes. Eve was created for noble (spiritually eternal) purposes, whereas Adam was created for common (or earthly) purposes.
Why are you obsessed with repeating the primordial lies of Satan ad nauseum?
I mean, the Woman was deceived by them. Are you intent on perpetuating the same diabolical scheming as the evil one?
I would FF to the last 15 minutes and listen intently if I were you. Same goes for any other hyper-Calvinist.
https://www.sermonaudio.com/solo/cliffside/sermons/9101132540/
I mean, the Woman was deceived by them. Are you intent on perpetuating the same diabolical scheming as the evil one?
I would FF to the last 15 minutes and listen intently if I were you. Same goes for any other hyper-Calvinist.
https://www.sermonaudio.com/solo/cliffside/sermons/9101132540/
I have never met a more condemning poster on CC than @Rufus
@brightfame52 is equally obsessed.
Fortunately, Gods gift of salvation is GIVEN to whosoever ***will*** COME to FREELY receive it.
[Rev 21:6 KJV]
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
[Rev 22:17 KJV]
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
@brightfame52 is equally obsessed.
Fortunately, Gods gift of salvation is GIVEN to whosoever ***will*** COME to FREELY receive it.
[Rev 21:6 KJV]
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
[Rev 22:17 KJV]
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
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Chapter and verse on your "cross" answer. Otherwise, you're speculating. My bible tells me that only those justified by faith will see God. Of course, there is one biblical exception but if your life depended on coming up with the biblical answer, you wouldn't make it because you're so willfully ignorant.