Understanding God’s election
- Thread starter dougcho
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Genesis 1:5
God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.
Jeremiah 33:20
“Thus says the Lord : If you can break my covenant with the day and my covenant with the night, so that day and night will not come at their appointed time,
God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.
Jeremiah 33:20
“Thus says the Lord : If you can break my covenant with the day and my covenant with the night, so that day and night will not come at their appointed time,
Rom 11:5-7
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
-
1
- Show all
Again, the need is to harmonize RM 11:5-7 with other Scriptures such as the following:
DT 30:19, "This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live."
MT 23:37, "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing."
JN 3:16, :For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
1TM 2:3b-4, "God our Savior wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."
Since you did not agree with the way I sewed the Scriptures together...:
1. Paul views the elect as those who receive God's grace though faith instead of trying to merit salvation by obeying moral laws (RM 11:5-6, EPH 2:4-10). God initiates; souls cooperate--or not.
2. Some Jews cooperated with God, but others did not and shut their ears and eyes to GW (RM 11:7-10, ACTS 28:25-28)
3. The Jews as a whole did not fall completely beyond recovery or from the possibility of being saved, because the possibility of Gentiles receiving salvation may make some of them envious and prompt them also to accept God's grace (RM 11:11-14, 1TM 2:3-4, JN 3:16).
4. Gentiles should not feel superior to Jews, because all are broken off the tree of life because of unbelief or grafted into the tree of life by faith (RM 11:15-21, DT 30:19, MT 23:37).
5. God is stern toward those who reject His POS and kind to all (1TM 2:3-4, JN 3:16) who accept grace, if they continue to cooperate rather than persist in unbelief/unwillingness (RM 11:22-24, DT 30:19, MT 23:37).
6. God allows Jews to be hardened and become ungodly enemies just (pun) as the Gentiles were, so that He may have mercy on them all--that is, on all He chooses to elect, which is all (1TM 2:3-4, JN 3:16) who reflect His love by accepting Messiah/Christ (DT 30:19, MT 23:37). In this way His POS is just (2TH 1:6).
...It is up to you to suggest a better way to affirm both sets of Scripture, but simply stating Calvinist doctrine doesn't do it--so my bet still stands. :^)
DT 30:19, "This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live."
MT 23:37, "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing."
JN 3:16, :For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
1TM 2:3b-4, "God our Savior wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."
Since you did not agree with the way I sewed the Scriptures together...:
1. Paul views the elect as those who receive God's grace though faith instead of trying to merit salvation by obeying moral laws (RM 11:5-6, EPH 2:4-10). God initiates; souls cooperate--or not.
2. Some Jews cooperated with God, but others did not and shut their ears and eyes to GW (RM 11:7-10, ACTS 28:25-28)
3. The Jews as a whole did not fall completely beyond recovery or from the possibility of being saved, because the possibility of Gentiles receiving salvation may make some of them envious and prompt them also to accept God's grace (RM 11:11-14, 1TM 2:3-4, JN 3:16).
4. Gentiles should not feel superior to Jews, because all are broken off the tree of life because of unbelief or grafted into the tree of life by faith (RM 11:15-21, DT 30:19, MT 23:37).
5. God is stern toward those who reject His POS and kind to all (1TM 2:3-4, JN 3:16) who accept grace, if they continue to cooperate rather than persist in unbelief/unwillingness (RM 11:22-24, DT 30:19, MT 23:37).
6. God allows Jews to be hardened and become ungodly enemies just (pun) as the Gentiles were, so that He may have mercy on them all--that is, on all He chooses to elect, which is all (1TM 2:3-4, JN 3:16) who reflect His love by accepting Messiah/Christ (DT 30:19, MT 23:37). In this way His POS is just (2TH 1:6).
...It is up to you to suggest a better way to affirm both sets of Scripture, but simply stating Calvinist doctrine doesn't do it--so my bet still stands. :^)
-
1
- Show all
I'm not going to prolong this discussion further, but it should be understood, and should have been clear from reading the verse, that if a person is spiritually resurrected from death to eternal life solely by God's grace, as depicted in Ephesians 2:5, then such grace was/is indeed irresistible. There simply is no other way to perceive it.
You would transform God's salvation into some kind of a bizarre Rube Goldberg contraption - one derived from the pits of man's intellect - rather than of one befitting a great, infinite, wise, merciful, gracious, and omnipotent God.
You would transform God's salvation into some kind of a bizarre Rube Goldberg contraption - one derived from the pits of man's intellect - rather than of one befitting a great, infinite, wise, merciful, gracious, and omnipotent God.
-
2
- Show all
Also Rom 5:21 teaches that grace is irresistible, even more so than death,
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Grace reigns through its author Jesus Christ. Reign means
There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.
Now why do we think Grace can be resisted coming from Jesus Christ our Lord ? Is Adams death greater than His Grace ?
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Grace reigns through its author Jesus Christ. Reign means
- metaph. to exercise the highest influence, to control
There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.
Now why do we think Grace can be resisted coming from Jesus Christ our Lord ? Is Adams death greater than His Grace ?
-
1
- Show all
But doesn't the "baby in utero" have to repent and believe the gospel? And isn't Adam (who so many here believe was one of God's holy saints simply because God provided a covering for his nakedness 
) the Federal head of the entire human race, including your "baby in utero"? And do people who die in ["saint"] Adam go to heaven or hell?
) the Federal head of the entire human race, including your "baby in utero"? And do people who die in ["saint"] Adam go to heaven or hell?
2 Corinthians 12:9
But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”
Therefore, I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.
Ironically... Grace can enable a man to resist what he is naturally too weak to resist.
And, also make him able to do what he is too weak to accomplish.
Grace is not irresistible. Pride can stop the flow of grace instantly.
Grace is God's enabling power given to man to stop being helpless and hopeless in God desiring a believer to walk in righteousness. Divine enabling power to do the right thing. Again, pride will destroy what grace wants to enable.
1 Corinthians 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect.
No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.
Grace is God's power for enabling the fallen, to walk as if they were not fallen, as God will determine his grace is needed to work in His Plan.
Grace is not some loving feeling (unmerited favor) from God.
Yet, God is also love. And God's love gets confused for his grace.
Grace is not being understood as it should be by certain believers because of their habitual indoctrination.
Grace will only be understood by those who humbly find themselves walking in His grace while not concentrating
on the dogma of some particular denominational way of thinking.
Grace enables one to understand what man can not understand naturally.
Denominational indoctrination only reinforces what can be naturally understood, or believed, within the realm of human power.
2 Corinthians 12:9
But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”
Therefore, I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me.
Grace is God's invisible power to make us to become as God wants man to be... if that man is humble.
Its conditional.
It's not irresistible!
But He gives more grace. Therefore, He says:
“God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.”
James 4:6
“God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.”
James 4:6
Pride resists grace!!!!!!
You have a worldly view of heaven as well. You think "rich" = material wealth???
And, yes, Adam is the cause for the Fall of mankind and all the curses that are on this earth because of his sin. You might want to ponder Rom 5 and 1Cor 15 someday. If Adam hadn't sinned, none of us would have inherited Adam's sin nature and spiritual death.
Finally, maybe you should begin paying off with the correction scripture cite. Eph 3:8 doesn't say what you say it does.
And, yes, Adam is the cause for the Fall of mankind and all the curses that are on this earth because of his sin. You might want to ponder Rom 5 and 1Cor 15 someday. If Adam hadn't sinned, none of us would have inherited Adam's sin nature and spiritual death.
Finally, maybe you should begin paying off with the correction scripture cite. Eph 3:8 doesn't say what you say it does.
Not sure what the preceding impasse involves, but hopefully the following will help get past it:
Volition (MFW) only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (DT 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God.
The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (GL 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (IS 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (GL 6:7-9, HB 9:27-28). These options were presented by Moses to the Israelites (DT 30:19), and Jesus referred to this fundamental choice in terms of a fish or egg versus a snake or scorpion (LK 11:11-13). Life… or Curse? (GN 3:24, RV 22:1-2)
God created theoretical evil or the possibility of rejecting Him as an option that actualizes MFW/free human personality. As such it is necessary and even good (GN 1:31). Of course, it was wrong for Satan (1JN 3:8) and humanity (RM 5:12) to make evil actual by choosing to Sin or reject Faith in God’s Lordship. Sin: ignoring God/God’s Word.
God loves a cheerful giver (2CR 9:7), which means He desires people to cooperate with Him happily because of love and gratitude for His grace rather than to cower before Him because of fear of hell. Love must be evoked; it cannot be coerced. And again, when souls sin or do NOT choose to love God freely, it is perfectly just (loving and logical) for them to reap the appropriate consequence (GL 6:7-9) or hell.
Volition (MFW) only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (DT 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God.
The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (GL 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (IS 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (GL 6:7-9, HB 9:27-28). These options were presented by Moses to the Israelites (DT 30:19), and Jesus referred to this fundamental choice in terms of a fish or egg versus a snake or scorpion (LK 11:11-13). Life… or Curse? (GN 3:24, RV 22:1-2)
God created theoretical evil or the possibility of rejecting Him as an option that actualizes MFW/free human personality. As such it is necessary and even good (GN 1:31). Of course, it was wrong for Satan (1JN 3:8) and humanity (RM 5:12) to make evil actual by choosing to Sin or reject Faith in God’s Lordship. Sin: ignoring God/God’s Word.
God loves a cheerful giver (2CR 9:7), which means He desires people to cooperate with Him happily because of love and gratitude for His grace rather than to cower before Him because of fear of hell. Love must be evoked; it cannot be coerced. And again, when souls sin or do NOT choose to love God freely, it is perfectly just (loving and logical) for them to reap the appropriate consequence (GL 6:7-9) or hell.
-
1
- Show all