Understanding God’s election

[Genez]

Have you been ordained official version picker outer?

No... But after having been taught from the King James for years, and seeing corrections being made from the original languages,

I have learned that taking the KJV as one's sole source has at times been very misleading.

And, the same also goes for anyone solely depending upon any mainstream translation.

For some words would take a paragraph, or two, to convey the original intent.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

In the Bible the word heart pertains to the soul. Not the fleshly pump.

That is what is so good about dialoguing in Christian forums.
We can learn about what we have may have been missing, so we can continue to gain in growing in the mind of Christ.

I am not trying to give you a hard time.
I just needed to say what it is that you had been missing...
For its important to know.

grace and peace ...........

Actually heart is a different word in both Hebrew and Greek than soul

H3820 לֵב leb (laɓe) n-m.
1. the heart.

G2588 καρδία kardia (kar-d̮iy'-a) n.
1. the heart.

 

[Rufus]

Genesis 6:18
But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the
ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.

Genesis 9:9
And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;

Genesis 9:11
And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more
by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.

Genesis 9:12
And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me
and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:

Genesis 9:13
I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.

Genesis 9:15
And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living
creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.

Genesis 9:16
And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the
everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

Genesis 9:17
And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which
I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.

True enough. I should have been more clear. The Noahic Covenant is not a redemptive covenant. It's simply a promise to all mankind (through Noah) God would never do a sequel to the Flood. The frist redemptive covenant is with Abraham and his descendants.

 

[Genez]

Have you been ordained official version picker outer?

That is what the KJV Only people are notorious for doing.

 

[Rufus]

No... But after having been taught from the King James for years, and seeing corrections being made from the original languages,

I have learned that taking the KJV as one's sole source has at times been very misleading.

And, the same also goes for anyone solely depending upon any mainstream translation.

For some words would take a paragraph, or two, to convey the original intent.

So, if we can't trust "any mainstream version" which alternative version can be trusted?

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

So, if we can't trust "any mainstream version" which alternative version can be trusted?

Interlinears are the best

 

[Genez]

Actually heart is a different word in both Hebrew and Greek than soul

H3820 לֵב leb (laɓe) n-m.
1. the heart.

G2588 καρδία kardia (kar-d̮iy'-a) n.
1. the heart.

It could also be translated... "For as he thinketh within himself."

That is synonymous with the function of the heart.
For that is where one thinks within himself.

Some simply choose to state what was taking place by using the word "heart."

Note please the process Lucifer deployed in his fall...

How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! ​

how art thou cut down to the ground, that didst lay low the nations! ​

And thou saidst in thy heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt ​

my throne above the stars of God; and I will sit upon the mount of ​

congregation, in the uttermost parts of the north; I will ascend ​

above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most ​

High." Isaiah 14:12-14 ASV​

No overt action.
Satan fell with a thought!
For, God sees our private thoughts as overt action.

“You have heard that our fathers were told, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ ​

But I tell you that a man who even looks at a woman with the purpose ​

of lusting after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." ​

​

Matthew 5:27-28​

Complete Jewish Bible​

We need to confess our mental attitude sins.
Not just our overt ones.

​

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us ​

from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a ​

liar and his word is not in us.​

1 John 1:9-10
New International Version

 

[Genez]

Interlinears are the best

I used to use those, and they were good for one point in my growth.

But there came a time that the Lord placed me into His army and demanded that I train for the warfare
with tools honed for battle to defeat our enemy who will exploit us where we remain ignorant.

It was humbling to discover how much I did not know, because I was unable to know by teaching myself.
God raises up dedicated men with the gift to train men for the spiritual battle.

When I served in the US Army I was not handed books and told to teach myself how to handle each weapon.
I needed to be trained. It takes someone with the gift to train to keep one alive and victorious.

One may know many details about a defensive weapon that another may not.
But the who was not book smart, yet trained in its proper use by gifted men, will be the one who functions well in battle.

 

[rogerg]

I quoted what was pertinent.

Including the rest will not change it's meaning.

My point was about the Biblical usage of the word heart.

grace and peace ...........

That's completely absurd. It most definitely changes its meaning and changes it drastically. It is not your place to make that decision on behalf of others.

 

[Genez]

That's completely absurd. It most definitely changes its meaning and changes it drastically. It is not your place to make that decision on behalf of others.

Show us how! You need to stop making blanket statements and walking away.

Show us how the second half changes the meaning of the first part quoted.

"For as he thinks in his heart, so is he. 'Eat and drink!' he says to you, but his heart is not with you".

Proverbs 23:7

 

[Rufus]

Interlinears are the best

And comparing with other translations (especially the most literal) is equally as good. And even more importantly comparing scripture with scripture assures there's no contradictions. IOW, applying sound hermeneutical principles will almost always yield a good and consistent result.

 

[rogerg]

Show us how! You need to stop making blanket statements and walking away.

Show us how the second half changes the meaning of the first part quoted.

"For as he thinks in his heart, so is he. 'Eat and drink!' he says to you, but his heart is not with you".

Proverbs 23:7

In total, it is a proverb depicting the actions of the carnal unsaved, you however, by just using the first half, made it appear as though it is setting-forth a self-contained, fundamental spiritual truth pertaining to both the saved and unsaved. There is a difference between the spiritual and the carnal - they obey different biblical rules. What might be true for the one is not true for the other. Read 1 Corinthians 2:10 - 14 closely. When you can truly comprehend its message let me know.

 

[Rufus]

Show us how! You need to stop making blanket statements and walking away.

Show us how the second half changes the meaning of the first part quoted.

"For as he thinks in his heart, so is he. 'Eat and drink!' he says to you, but his heart is not with you".

Proverbs 23:7

But many other literal translations don't read that way!

For example:

Prov 23:7
for he is like one who is inwardly calculating.
"Eat and drink!" he says to you,
but his heart is not with you.
ESV

or

Prov 23:7
7 For as he thinks within himself, so he is.
He says to you, "Eat and drink!"
But his heart is not with you.
NASB

or
Prov 23:7
7 For as he thinketh in his soul, so is he. Eat and drink! will he say unto thee; but his heart is not with thee.
Darby

or

Prov 23:7
7 For as he hath thought in his soul, so [is] he, 'Eat and drink,' saith he to thee, And his heart [is] not with thee.
YLT

One thing that is consistent with most of these literal translations is that thinking takes place from the inside out! Thinking begins in the immaterial part of man. The brain is nowhere in view in any of these verses.

 

[rogerg]

Show us how! You need to stop making blanket statements and walking away.

And by the way, that is your standard response to those who point out the flaws in your thinking/reasoning - I've seen you use it before - it's your attempt at a get out of jail free card. Next time, try to be more creative.

 

[Rufus]

Here's an exercise I would recommend for everyone. The term "soul" is found (about) 110 times in the OT. Just from casual perusal alone, we find two things:

First, "soul" and "heart" are often used together in a verse signifying that there is a difference between the two, otherwise all those passages would be redundant. So...whatever the difference is (nuanced or otherwise), it would behoove us to dig into those passages to discover that difference or differences. For example, we know the bible speaks often about losing our souls, but never about losing or hearts. Likewise, the bible speaks often about saving or souls and never our hearts. Or spiritual death is never spoken of in scripture as the separation of heart from God, but rather separation of the soul from God. Likewise, spiritual life is not restored to the soul per se but to the soul so that a person is once again connected to the Life of God., etc. Yet, at the same time, the bible most often assigns moral character not so much to our souls but to our hearts. A person with a wicked heart will most definitely impact his soul, etc.

By the same token, the soul and heart appear to be inextricably entwined with one another. Just as intellect resides in the heart, so it does also in the soul. Ditto for emotions for both.

It also appears that whenever scripture want to emphasize the "whole man", it links soul and heart together. For example, take the Greatest Commandment: We are commanded to love the Lord with all our heart AND all our soul.

This is the kind of subject that would take us very deep into the Word of God -- learning the similarities and the differences.

 

[Genez]

In total, it is a proverb depicting the actions of the carnal unsaved, you however, by just using the first half, made it appear as though it is setting-forth a self-contained, fundamental spiritual truth pertaining to both the saved and unsaved. There is a difference between the spiritual and the carnal - they obey different biblical rules. What might be true for the one is not true for the other. Read 1 Corinthians 2:10 - 14 closely. When you can truly comprehend its message let me know.

What made you conclude he was unsaved?
Carnal Christians can be very selfish, and even arrogant.

You think that you are not what you think in your heart??????

 

[rogerg]

What made you conclude he was unsaved?
Carnal Christians can be very selfish, and even arrogant.

You think that you are not what you think in your heart??????

The half of the verse you didn't include

 

[Genez]

The half of the verse you didn't include

If that's all you got to work with? ....

Others still might learn the Biblical principle of what 'heart' means.

 

[Genez]

And by the way, that is your standard response to those who point out the flaws in your thinking/reasoning - I've seen you use it before - it's your attempt at a get out of jail free card. Next time, try to be more creative.

Then stop making blanket statements.
Then, I'll stop needing to say it.

 

[rogerg]

Then stop making blanket statements.
Then, I'll stop needing to say it.

You should just catalog them each with a reference number. Then, instead of having to type the whole thing over and
over again, you could just, for example, type A112, and we'll all know exactly what you were going to say. I'm sure
the ones you use won't vary much since you always pretty much, say the same thing. Maybe you could develop
a random reference generator and it would automatically post them for you.