- Animal was slain, signifying blood was shed
- Blood covenants sealed in blood were the way God dealt with his people
- Adam was the image of God, therefore he had the mind of God
- Adam was the son of God (not some neanderthal hillbilly like you seem to think)
Understanding God’s election
- Thread starter dougcho
- Start date
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If salvation isn't by man's works (as you said above claiming it an illegitimate practice), then it must be by God's works. There isn't a third option. Did you read/understand the verse I included - that salvation is bestowed freely by God as a gift upon those whom He had chosen to receive it. Or do you not believe salvation is solely by God's grace? What do you then think it means that Christ is the Savior?
Here it is again. This single verse captures the basis of salvation.
[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Here it is again. This single verse captures the basis of salvation.
[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Where is there mention in the bible of this mysterious covenant? The first explicit mention of a covenant is the one God made with Noah. And the second mention of a covenant is with Abraham when God determined to make a particular people his chosen people.
And if you had read my 15-pt. argument, I make a big point of the fact that Adam was created with incredible intelligence and was in fact the first scientist on record. Hardly your straw men "neanderthal hillbilly".
Also, just for the record, in my post where I make case that Adam was a type of Satan, I pointed out that in Satan's case God created a being of great beauty, whereas as in Adam's case God created a man with an intelligence that would easily rival Einstein's, since God evidently endowed Adam with tremendous working knowledge of this world so that Adam was equipped to become become an astute scientist in two science disciplines: Taxonomy and Horticulture. In short both of these creations were quite unique.
As far as blood being shed, the OC people of God shed much blood with the sacrifices they made under the Law, and yet God ABHORRED their blood sacrifices because they had no faith. I guess you can't figure out what Ps 4:5 is teaching? Sacrifices + Faith go together like hand-in-glove.
And is it any different today under the New Covenant. Christ shed his own precious blood for his elect -- yet they MUST appropriate that sacrifice by the faith God grants to them.
Give me evidence that Adam, who hid his transgressions from God, had any faith.
And if you had read my 15-pt. argument, I make a big point of the fact that Adam was created with incredible intelligence and was in fact the first scientist on record. Hardly your straw men "neanderthal hillbilly".
Also, just for the record, in my post where I make case that Adam was a type of Satan, I pointed out that in Satan's case God created a being of great beauty, whereas as in Adam's case God created a man with an intelligence that would easily rival Einstein's, since God evidently endowed Adam with tremendous working knowledge of this world so that Adam was equipped to become become an astute scientist in two science disciplines: Taxonomy and Horticulture. In short both of these creations were quite unique.
As far as blood being shed, the OC people of God shed much blood with the sacrifices they made under the Law, and yet God ABHORRED their blood sacrifices because they had no faith. I guess you can't figure out what Ps 4:5 is teaching? Sacrifices + Faith go together like hand-in-glove.
And is it any different today under the New Covenant. Christ shed his own precious blood for his elect -- yet they MUST appropriate that sacrifice by the faith God grants to them.
Give me evidence that Adam, who hid his transgressions from God, had any faith.
Ah, you stand by that rock solid OT sacrificial system.
This is a forum dedicated to the last and perfect sacrificial lamb, Yeshua.
That's why OT thought processes blocks your way.
You're standing on sand.
Christians stand on the rock.
"Obviously, Adam and Eve experienced a profound sense of guilt and shame, which Scripture teaches. Even though they fled from God and hid from God, two things stand out in that narrative.
One, the first act of redemption recorded in sacred Scripture was when God condescended to make garments to cover the nakedness of Adam and Eve. If you look at that whole concept of nakedness from Adam and Eve to Noah and through the whole of sacred Scripture, you will see the motif over and over again that salvation is communicated through the metaphor of covering. On the Day of Atonement, when the high priest would take the blood of the animal and sprinkle it on the mercy seat in the Holy of Holies, the blood became a covering for the iniquities of his people. The work of Christ in our redemption is that He provides us with the clothing of His righteousness to cover our filthy rags and our nakedness. Since God instituted that principle of imputation, or covering of sin, with Adam and Eve, that strongly suggests to me that they were redeemed. That would have presupposed their repentance.
Two, in the curse of the serpent that is part of the judgment of God for the fall, there is the promise of the protoevangel. That is, from the seed of the woman would come One who would crush the head of the serpent while its heel was being bruised. That was a promise of redemption given to Adam and Eve, and to their descendants, based on grace."
Source:
https://learn.ligonier.org/qas/is-t...rJ1fNsdbtCBnIiIeLEbaGRV6YB-U0y9Z8x6opSVdLREoP
This is a forum dedicated to the last and perfect sacrificial lamb, Yeshua.
That's why OT thought processes blocks your way.
You're standing on sand.
Christians stand on the rock.
"Obviously, Adam and Eve experienced a profound sense of guilt and shame, which Scripture teaches. Even though they fled from God and hid from God, two things stand out in that narrative.
One, the first act of redemption recorded in sacred Scripture was when God condescended to make garments to cover the nakedness of Adam and Eve. If you look at that whole concept of nakedness from Adam and Eve to Noah and through the whole of sacred Scripture, you will see the motif over and over again that salvation is communicated through the metaphor of covering. On the Day of Atonement, when the high priest would take the blood of the animal and sprinkle it on the mercy seat in the Holy of Holies, the blood became a covering for the iniquities of his people. The work of Christ in our redemption is that He provides us with the clothing of His righteousness to cover our filthy rags and our nakedness. Since God instituted that principle of imputation, or covering of sin, with Adam and Eve, that strongly suggests to me that they were redeemed. That would have presupposed their repentance.
Two, in the curse of the serpent that is part of the judgment of God for the fall, there is the promise of the protoevangel. That is, from the seed of the woman would come One who would crush the head of the serpent while its heel was being bruised. That was a promise of redemption given to Adam and Eve, and to their descendants, based on grace."
Source:
https://learn.ligonier.org/qas/is-t...rJ1fNsdbtCBnIiIeLEbaGRV6YB-U0y9Z8x6opSVdLREoP
No, it's not be inferred. To infer that God made a covenant would be unprecedented and none of us should just glibly do unprecedented because it helps to support your personal theological agenda, especially since all the other covenants in the bible are explicitly stated.
Furthermore, if God had made a covenant with Adam, who was the Federal Head of the human race, then this would mean he made a covenant with the entire human race which would also be unprecedented, since all the other covenants involve a particular people.
And if God made this mythical covenant with Adam, how come Adam (this supposed man of faith) isn't the spiritual father of the human race since he was its federal head?
Furthermore, if God had made a covenant with Adam, who was the Federal Head of the human race, then this would mean he made a covenant with the entire human race which would also be unprecedented, since all the other covenants involve a particular people.
And if God made this mythical covenant with Adam, how come Adam (this supposed man of faith) isn't the spiritual father of the human race since he was its federal head?
Your faith is the gift of God.
Romans 10:17 tells us how we get faith!
Grace was God's applied power to suppress our flesh, as to allow our soul to give that "faith" a fair hearing.
For, if out flesh was not suppressed? No one could have believed!
Galatians 5:17
Being ruled by our flesh in our unregenerate state?
No one could believe.
Not unless God arrested the flesh and locked it down while being given the Gospel.
Locks it down so our soul can decide without being dominated by the sin nature.
And, yes.. In that manner?
God' grace placed us in a state of having our soul being made able to believe.
It made our soul free to choose to believe, or not to believe.
That way? Those who reject after being given grace? Are without excuse.
In Christ....
Romans 10:17 tells us how we get faith!
"So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ."
God presented faith, and we took it! It was a gift from God!Grace was God's applied power to suppress our flesh, as to allow our soul to give that "faith" a fair hearing.
For, if out flesh was not suppressed? No one could have believed!
Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh;
and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things
that you wish.
Being ruled by our flesh in our unregenerate state?
No one could believe.
Not unless God arrested the flesh and locked it down while being given the Gospel.
Locks it down so our soul can decide without being dominated by the sin nature.
And, yes.. In that manner?
God' grace placed us in a state of having our soul being made able to believe.
It made our soul free to choose to believe, or not to believe.
That way? Those who reject after being given grace? Are without excuse.
"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men." Titus 2:11
In Christ....
Faith comes from salvation; it does not lead to salvation. Becoming saved is first and is the gift of God.
No, it does not come that way. First the verse does not actually contain the word "comes"; second the hearing in view is
spiritual hearing, not physical hearing - spiritual hearing comes only as a result of salvation, not before; third
true faith originates from the heart (see Rom 10:10 below), it, does not start in the ears, and from the heart goes to the spiritual mind, by which, we spiritually hear and perceive- it does not occur in the reverse. Faith is placed into the heart only by the Holy Spirit (see Gal 5:22 below) upon salvation/being born-again. Until saved/born again we are spiritually dead in sin and therefore incapable of hearing spiritually.
[Rom 10:10 KJV] 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
If we didn't already have faith, why would we desire to obtain faith, given that we didn't believe in order to want it.
IOW one must already possess faith in order to desire it.
Suppression of the flesh brings neither salvation or belief - it works in the reverse - first saved, and from that, believe. You obviously either didn't read or understand the verse I included in my prior post which explains that salvation is solely from God's grace alone.
If that is true (which it is), then nothing else in terms of salvation, can be co-equal to God's grace with all else being dependent upon it.
To make this easier, instead of me addressing each of the points in your post individually, why don't you read the verse closely and when you are completely comfortable with it, we can discuss it and its implications further. I think that it would provide us a good point of departure for discussion - top down rather than bottom-up so to speak.
No, it does not come that way. First the verse does not actually contain the word "comes"; second the hearing in view is
spiritual hearing, not physical hearing - spiritual hearing comes only as a result of salvation, not before; third
true faith originates from the heart (see Rom 10:10 below), it, does not start in the ears, and from the heart goes to the spiritual mind, by which, we spiritually hear and perceive- it does not occur in the reverse. Faith is placed into the heart only by the Holy Spirit (see Gal 5:22 below) upon salvation/being born-again. Until saved/born again we are spiritually dead in sin and therefore incapable of hearing spiritually.
[Rom 10:10 KJV] 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
If we didn't already have faith, why would we desire to obtain faith, given that we didn't believe in order to want it.
IOW one must already possess faith in order to desire it.
Suppression of the flesh brings neither salvation or belief - it works in the reverse - first saved, and from that, believe. You obviously either didn't read or understand the verse I included in my prior post which explains that salvation is solely from God's grace alone.
If that is true (which it is), then nothing else in terms of salvation, can be co-equal to God's grace with all else being dependent upon it.
To make this easier, instead of me addressing each of the points in your post individually, why don't you read the verse closely and when you are completely comfortable with it, we can discuss it and its implications further. I think that it would provide us a good point of departure for discussion - top down rather than bottom-up so to speak.
What does God save of you?
If you were totally depraved that would leave God with nothing to save.
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved
me and gave himself for me. Galatians 2:20
He crucified your body.
What does that leave God with?
For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned
to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls." 1 Peter 2:25
Tell me?
Is your soul (sans flesh) totally depraved?
If you were totally depraved that would leave God with nothing to save.
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved
me and gave himself for me. Galatians 2:20
He crucified your body.
What does that leave God with?
For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned
to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls." 1 Peter 2:25
Tell me?
Is your soul (sans flesh) totally depraved?