The Religious Spirit vs. The Pharisee Spirit

[ValleyAnt]

I'm making this distinction because there is a distinction. Don't worry too much about the exact words used. We use words to communicate so the words might not be correct but the principles are.

I've always been inquisitive since I was a little kid: guessing and speculating aren't enough for me; I have to know for certain. And from childhood I was always interested in making distinctions, even very fine distinctions, between similar words and similar things. I remember when I was about seven years old, for instance, mulling over the distinctions of the three very similar words recognize, realize, notice. I don't like learning just to have information on the brain but to have facts and truths that can enhance my and others' lives. I like to help people recognize whatever it is they are dealing with, struggling with, or encountering so they can proceed with [some better] understanding.

So, does it help to know the difference between the religious spirit and the Pharisee spirit? Yes, if you are sincerely wanting to spiritually mature; if you genuinely are working on your relationship with God. If you are a passive christian, you don't need to 'know' anything except that you're going to Heaven (which you might not be) and you're set. But if you're serious about growing in Christ and walking with God, then having discernment is absolutely mandatory for you, almost like the oxygen you breathe (but maybe more like the food you eat with the 'fear of the Lord' being air and 'wisdom' being water).

Many of you have probably heard of 'the religious spirit'. The charismatics accuse the Baptists of having it; the evangelicals accuse the pentecostals of having it. Everyone is pointing fingers, but what is the religious spirit. Here's a quick synopsis of both:

1. Religious Spirit. While evil spirits will attach to anything that is dirty, sinful, etc., the religious spirit isn't a literal spirit. (Again, there are plenty of spirits who will attach to the lives of people with a religious spirit.) The religious spirit is, if we can call it this, a mindset. When a person approaches God not according to how He wants to approach but how they or their church or their society or traditions say to approach God, that person is 'operating in a 'religious spirit'. God requires that people approach Him a certain way (yes, even through Christ); when people approach another way, this way is 'strange' and what we call 'operating in a religious spirit'. This passage might be the most concise example of "true religion before God the Father" vs. 'the religious spirit':

"Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, each took his censer and put fire in it, put incense on it, and offered strange fire before the Lord which He had not commanded them. So fire went out from the Lord and devoured them, and they died before the Lord. And Moses said to Aaron, 'This is what the Lord spoke, saying: "By those who come near Me I must be regarded as holy; and before all the people I must be glorified."'" (Leviticus 10:1-3.)

True religion approaches God with reverence (regards Him as holy and acts accordingly); believers who approach God this way are the only ones who can glorify Him. Why? Because kings and important people don't presence just anywhere. Sanctifying yourself (living holy) and then approaching God in reverence prepares the way for Him to 'come near': that's the red carpet, the limos, the expensive hotel, the five-star treatment as we do it here. Nadab and Abihu were priests; they were allowed to offer fire from the incense. So why was God angry and what is strange fire? God was angry because they offered the incense at a time He hadn't told them to do so: they were doing religion (ie. approaching God) their own way. This is the way many christians live without knowing it because people only know what they're taught and usually do what everyone around them is doing. The religious spirit doesn't make people bad (though ugly attitudes like self-righteousness, false goodness, and pride-- and negative things like confusion, error, and spiritual darkness-- are usually attached to it). Religious people are basically always harmless as in overtly. On the other hand...

2. Pharisee Spirit: This is an advanced form of the religious spirit. The difference here is this one either has position/power or thinks it has or should have position/power. This is the one that killed Jesus. The common man of Jesus's time followed the religious leaders since they were the leaders. (Jesus even told the people, "You must be careful to do everything [the religious leaders] tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach" -- Matt. 23:3). This spirit is also the one that chased and persecuted the apostles, killed Stephen, persecuted the early Church, etc. When thinking of the Pharisee spirit, the picture that comes to mind is the Sanhedrin-- the council of Jewish ruling religious leaders of Jesus's time. (But when thinking about the religious spirit, all that comes to mind is 'error' or 'unwitting error' or 'ignorance'.) People who simply 'have a religious spirit' don't care much if others disagree with their views; they might argue it a little but aren't invested in it. On the other hand, people with a Pharisee spirit believe they are authorities of some type, tip their hand (ie. unwittingly expose their arrogance), and will question [the gall of/challenge] people who disagree with them. They will insist that a person they dislike must submit to them in some way, whether by responding to their demands or questions or in some other way. It was this spirit that in Jesus's times demanded things like, "By what authority do You do these [miracles], and who gave You the authority to do these things" (to Jesus, Mark 11:28) and "By what power or by what name have you done this" (to the apostles, Acts 4:7). This 'spirit' (definitely a meaner cadre of evil spirits attached to this one) makes a person believe they are or should be the authority and look down on anyone who doesn't agree with or think like them. The 'Pharisee spirit' (Jewish religious leaders) killed Jesus, because it is truly wicked and absolutely hates God, while the 'religious spirit' (the regular Jews) agreed out of confusion (as usual).

Most people live under the religious spirit, so that one is harder to see unless you grab the Bible and start comparing the way the early Church met and gathered to the way you and the christians and churches you know gather (then it slowly starts to unfold, fascinating but not new). But the Pharisee spirit is easier to detect. It's combative-- even if subtly-- with the attitude that someone else should be subordinate to it. I hope that helps some people, especially if you're dealing with the Pharisee spirit. God pardons the religious spirit (christians who live their lives under it) all the time; but He never pardons the Pharisee spirit (christians who live under it, unless they specifically repent and 'come out from under it').

 

[homwardbound]

I'm making this distinction because there is a distinction. Don't worry too much about the exact words used. We use words to communicate so the words might not be correct but the principles are.

I've always been inquisitive since I was a little kid: guessing and speculating aren't enough for me; I have to know for certain. And from childhood I was always interested in making distinctions, even very fine distinctions, between similar words and similar things. I remember when I was about seven years old, for instance, mulling over the distinctions of the three very similar words recognize, realize, notice. I don't like learning just to have information on the brain but to have facts and truths that can enhance my and others' lives. I like to help people recognize whatever it is they are dealing with, struggling with, or encountering so they can proceed with [some better] understanding.

So, does it help to know the difference between the religious spirit and the Pharisee spirit? Yes, if you are sincerely wanting to spiritually mature; if you genuinely are working on your relationship with God. If you are a passive christian, you don't need to 'know' anything except that you're going to Heaven (which you might not be) and you're set. But if you're serious about growing in Christ and walking with God, then having discernment is absolutely mandatory for you, almost like the oxygen you breathe (but maybe more like the food you eat with the 'fear of the Lord' being air and 'wisdom' being water).

Many of you have probably heard of 'the religious spirit'. The charismatics accuse the Baptists of having it; the evangelicals accuse the pentecostals of having it. Everyone is pointing fingers, but what is the religious spirit. Here's a quick synopsis of both:

1. Religious Spirit. While evil spirits will attach to anything that is dirty, sinful, etc., the religious spirit isn't a literal spirit. (Again, there are plenty of spirits who will attach to the lives of people with a religious spirit.) The religious spirit is, if we can call it this, a mindset. When a person approaches God not according to how He wants to approach but how they or their church or their society or traditions say to approach God, that person is 'operating in a 'religious spirit'. God requires that people approach Him a certain way (yes, even through Christ); when people approach another way, this way is 'strange' and what we call 'operating in a religious spirit'. This passage might be the most concise example of "true religion before God the Father" vs. 'the religious spirit':

"Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, each took his censer and put fire in it, put incense on it, and offered strange fire before the Lord which He had not commanded them. So fire went out from the Lord and devoured them, and they died before the Lord. And Moses said to Aaron, 'This is what the Lord spoke, saying: "By those who come near Me I must be regarded as holy; and before all the people I must be glorified."'" (Leviticus 10:1-3.)

True religion approaches God with reverence (regards Him as holy and acts accordingly); believers who approach God this way are the only ones who can glorify Him. Why? Because kings and important people don't presence just anywhere. Sanctifying yourself (living holy) and then approaching God in reverence prepares the way for Him to 'come near': that's the red carpet, the limos, the expensive hotel, the five-star treatment as we do it here. Nadab and Abihu were priests; they were allowed to offer fire from the incense. So why was God angry and what is strange fire? God was angry because they offered the incense at a time He hadn't told them to do so: they were doing religion (ie. approaching God) their own way. This is the way many christians live without knowing it because people only know what they're taught and usually do what everyone around them is doing. The religious spirit doesn't make people bad (though ugly attitudes like self-righteousness, false goodness, and pride-- and negative things like confusion, error, and spiritual darkness-- are usually attached to it). Religious people are basically always harmless as in overtly. On the other hand...

2. Pharisee Spirit: This is an advanced form of the religious spirit. The difference here is this one either has position/power or thinks it has or should have position/power. This is the one that killed Jesus. The common man of Jesus's time followed the religious leaders since they were the leaders. (Jesus even told the people, "You must be careful to do everything [the religious leaders] tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach" -- Matt. 23:3). This spirit is also the one that chased and persecuted the apostles, killed Stephen, persecuted the early Church, etc. When thinking of the Pharisee spirit, the picture that comes to mind is the Sanhedrin-- the council of Jewish ruling religious leaders of Jesus's time. (But when thinking about the religious spirit, all that comes to mind is 'error' or 'unwitting error' or 'ignorance'.) People who simply 'have a religious spirit' don't care much if others disagree with their views; they might argue it a little but aren't invested in it. On the other hand, people with a Pharisee spirit believe they are authorities of some type, tip their hand (ie. unwittingly expose their arrogance), and will question [the gall of/challenge] people who disagree with them. They will insist that a person they dislike must submit to them in some way, whether by responding to their demands or questions or in some other way. It was this spirit that in Jesus's times demanded things like, "By what authority do You do these [miracles], and who gave You the authority to do these things" (to Jesus, Mark 11:28) and "By what power or by what name have you done this" (to the apostles, Acts 4:7). This 'spirit' (definitely a meaner cadre of evil spirits attached to this one) makes a person believe they are or should be the authority and look down on anyone who doesn't agree with or think like them. The 'Pharisee spirit' (Jewish religious leaders) killed Jesus, because it is truly wicked and absolutely hates God, while the 'religious spirit' (the regular Jews) agreed out of confusion (as usual).

Most people live under the religious spirit, so that one is harder to see unless you grab the Bible and start comparing the way the early Church met and gathered to the way you and the christians and churches you know gather (then it slowly starts to unfold, fascinating but not new). But the Pharisee spirit is easier to detect. It's combative-- even if subtly-- with the attitude that someone else should be subordinate to it. I hope that helps some people, especially if you're dealing with the Pharisee spirit. God pardons the religious spirit (christians who live their lives under it) all the time; but He never pardons the Pharisee spirit (christians who live under it, unless they specifically repent and 'come out from under it').

Matthew 5:20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Soyeong]

I'm making this distinction because there is a distinction. Don't worry too much about the exact words used. We use words to communicate so the words might not be correct but the principles are.

I've always been inquisitive since I was a little kid: guessing and speculating aren't enough for me; I have to know for certain. And from childhood I was always interested in making distinctions, even very fine distinctions, between similar words and similar things. I remember when I was about seven years old, for instance, mulling over the distinctions of the three very similar words recognize, realize, notice. I don't like learning just to have information on the brain but to have facts and truths that can enhance my and others' lives. I like to help people recognize whatever it is they are dealing with, struggling with, or encountering so they can proceed with [some better] understanding.

So, does it help to know the difference between the religious spirit and the Pharisee spirit? Yes, if you are sincerely wanting to spiritually mature; if you genuinely are working on your relationship with God. If you are a passive christian, you don't need to 'know' anything except that you're going to Heaven (which you might not be) and you're set. But if you're serious about growing in Christ and walking with God, then having discernment is absolutely mandatory for you, almost like the oxygen you breathe (but maybe more like the food you eat with the 'fear of the Lord' being air and 'wisdom' being water).

Many of you have probably heard of 'the religious spirit'. The charismatics accuse the Baptists of having it; the evangelicals accuse the pentecostals of having it. Everyone is pointing fingers, but what is the religious spirit. Here's a quick synopsis of both:

1. Religious Spirit. While evil spirits will attach to anything that is dirty, sinful, etc., the religious spirit isn't a literal spirit. (Again, there are plenty of spirits who will attach to the lives of people with a religious spirit.) The religious spirit is, if we can call it this, a mindset. When a person approaches God not according to how He wants to approach but how they or their church or their society or traditions say to approach God, that person is 'operating in a 'religious spirit'. God requires that people approach Him a certain way (yes, even through Christ); when people approach another way, this way is 'strange' and what we call 'operating in a religious spirit'. This passage might be the most concise example of "true religion before God the Father" vs. 'the religious spirit':

"Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, each took his censer and put fire in it, put incense on it, and offered strange fire before the Lord which He had not commanded them. So fire went out from the Lord and devoured them, and they died before the Lord. And Moses said to Aaron, 'This is what the Lord spoke, saying: "By those who come near Me I must be regarded as holy; and before all the people I must be glorified."'" (Leviticus 10:1-3.)

True religion approaches God with reverence (regards Him as holy and acts accordingly); believers who approach God this way are the only ones who can glorify Him. Why? Because kings and important people don't presence just anywhere. Sanctifying yourself (living holy) and then approaching God in reverence prepares the way for Him to 'come near': that's the red carpet, the limos, the expensive hotel, the five-star treatment as we do it here. Nadab and Abihu were priests; they were allowed to offer fire from the incense. So why was God angry and what is strange fire? God was angry because they offered the incense at a time He hadn't told them to do so: they were doing religion (ie. approaching God) their own way. This is the way many christians live without knowing it because people only know what they're taught and usually do what everyone around them is doing. The religious spirit doesn't make people bad (though ugly attitudes like self-righteousness, false goodness, and pride-- and negative things like confusion, error, and spiritual darkness-- are usually attached to it). Religious people are basically always harmless as in overtly. On the other hand...

The Bible never refers to anyone having a religious spirit and never speaks negatively about someone being religious. Jesus set a perfect example for us to follow of how to practice Judaism by walking in sinless obedience to the Torah, so he was the most religious person ever and he had a religious spirit. Fire came from God to light the altar (Leviticus 9:24) and they were to never let this fire go out (Leviticus 6:13), so the problem with the strange fire was that it came from a different source than God.

2. Pharisee Spirit: This is an advanced form of the religious spirit. The difference here is this one either has position/power or thinks it has or should have position/power. This is the one that killed Jesus. The common man of Jesus's time followed the religious leaders since they were the leaders. (Jesus even told the people, "You must be careful to do everything [the religious leaders] tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach" -- Matt. 23:3). This spirit is also the one that chased and persecuted the apostles, killed Stephen, persecuted the early Church, etc. When thinking of the Pharisee spirit, the picture that comes to mind is the Sanhedrin-- the council of Jewish ruling religious leaders of Jesus's time. (But when thinking about the religious spirit, all that comes to mind is 'error' or 'unwitting error' or 'ignorance'.) People who simply 'have a religious spirit' don't care much if others disagree with their views; they might argue it a little but aren't invested in it. On the other hand, people with a Pharisee spirit believe they are authorities of some type, tip their hand (ie. unwittingly expose their arrogance), and will question [the gall of/challenge] people who disagree with them. They will insist that a person they dislike must submit to them in some way, whether by responding to their demands or questions or in some other way. It was this spirit that in Jesus's times demanded things like, "By what authority do You do these [miracles], and who gave You the authority to do these things" (to Jesus, Mark 11:28) and "By what power or by what name have you done this" (to the apostles, Acts 4:7). This 'spirit' (definitely a meaner cadre of evil spirits attached to this one) makes a person believe they are or should be the authority and look down on anyone who doesn't agree with or think like them. The 'Pharisee spirit' (Jewish religious leaders) killed Jesus, because it is truly wicked and absolutely hates God, while the 'religious spirit' (the regular Jews) agreed out of confusion (as usual).

Most people live under the religious spirit, so that one is harder to see unless you grab the Bible and start comparing the way the early Church met and gathered to the way you and the christians and churches you know gather (then it slowly starts to unfold, fascinating but not new). But the Pharisee spirit is easier to detect. It's combative-- even if subtly-- with the attitude that someone else should be subordinate to it. I hope that helps some people, especially if you're dealing with the Pharisee spirit. God pardons the religious spirit (christians who live their lives under it) all the time; but He never pardons the Pharisee spirit (christians who live under it, unless they specifically repent and 'come out from under it').

Paul never stopped identifying as a Pharisee (Acts 23:6), so he had a Pharisee spirit. Jesus spent most of his ministry interacting with and teaching Pharisees, but it was spending a week with the Sadducees that led to his death.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Fire came from God to light the altar (Leviticus 9:24) and they were to never let this fire go out (Leviticus 6:13), so the problem with the strange fire was that it came from a different source than God.

I think the reason they were killed is because they approached God without blood. Later God instructed Moses to tell Aaron in regards to the death of his sons that he was to approach God only on the day of atonement, not without blood

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Paul never stopped identifying as a Pharisee (Acts 23:6), so he had a Pharisee spirit. Jesus spent most of his ministry interacting with and teaching Pharisees, but it was spending a week with the Sadducees that led to his death.

This is pretty contrived. Jesus only spent time with pharisees when he had to, ie when they came to hear him, and he never had kind words for them.

 

[presidente]

1. Religious Spirit. While evil spirits will attach to anything that is dirty, sinful, etc., the religious spirit isn't a literal spirit. (Again, there are plenty of spirits who will attach to the lives of people with a religious spirit.) The religious spirit is, if we can call it this, a mindset. When a person approaches God not according to how He wants to approach but how they or their church or their society or traditions say to approach God, that person is 'operating in a 'religious spirit'. God requires that people approach Him a certain way (yes, even through Christ); when people approach another way, this way is 'strange' and what we call 'operating in a religious spirit'. This passage might be the most concise example of "true religion before God the Father" vs. 'the religious spirit':

This is my perception of the phrase 'religious spirit.' I find it to be a confusing term that isn't in the Bible that is used among Charismatics. I was raised Pentecostal, and since Pentecostals in the US in general do not believe Christians are 'demon possessed', they are less likely than some of the Charismatics to label bad attitudes as spirits or demons. In my experience, it isn't the culture. So when I got around Charismatics and heard phrases like 'religious spirit' it sounded a bit like religious mumbo jumbo a bit, jargon that confuses the audience.

To one person, it means the persons' own spirit. To another it means a demon. If it isn't clear what a 'religious spirit' is, and it isn't in the Bible, why use the term? Why build a doctrine about it? Why write a long post saying what the 'religious spirit' is?

It's one of these phrases you can use to ruin someone's reputation with no evidence... or maybe some 'spectral evidence' that no one can see. "Don't listen to him. He has a religious spirit." But based on what?

Now if you have something specific to accuse someone of, come right out and say it. Say, "You have a legalistic interpretation regarding X, Y, Z." or "You act really religious, but you are dishonest in your business dealings and you have a mistress" or some real solid accusation that corresponds to something other people can comprehend.

One of my other concerns about 'the religious spirit' is that it perpetuates this schtick I hear in the evangelical movement that 'religion' is supposedly a bad thing. Instead of preaching the gospel, some preachers give speech about not needing religion but relationship, as if that saves people.

In our Bible translations, there is vain religion and pure religion in James 1. So why would religion be inherently bad if there is such a thing as pure religion that is good? That doesn't make sense.

So instead of defining what these 'spirits' are, why not ask whether these types of Charismatic phrases are useful to use, and if they properly communicate the idea?

 

[Dino246]

I'm considering making a pot of popcorn for this thread.

 

[ValleyAnt]

This is my perception of the phrase 'religious spirit.' I find it to be a confusing term that isn't in the Bible that is used among Charismatics. I was raised Pentecostal, and since Pentecostals in the US in general do not believe Christians are 'demon possessed', they are less likely than some of the Charismatics to label bad attitudes as spirits or demons. In my experience, it isn't the culture. So when I got around Charismatics and heard phrases like 'religious spirit' it sounded a bit like religious mumbo jumbo a bit, jargon that confuses the audience.

To one person, it means the persons' own spirit. To another it means a demon. If it isn't clear what a 'religious spirit' is, and it isn't in the Bible, why use the term? Why build a doctrine about it? Why write a long post saying what the 'religious spirit' is?

It's one of these phrases you can use to ruin someone's reputation with no evidence... or maybe some 'spectral evidence' that no one can see. "Don't listen to him. He has a religious spirit." But based on what?

Now if you have something specific to accuse someone of, come right out and say it. Say, "You have a legalistic interpretation regarding X, Y, Z." or "You act really religious, but you are dishonest in your business dealings and you have a mistress" or some real solid accusation that corresponds to something other people can comprehend.

One of my other concerns about 'the religious spirit' is that it perpetuates this schtick I hear in the evangelical movement that 'religion' is supposedly a bad thing. Instead of preaching the gospel, some preachers give speech about not needing religion but relationship, as if that saves people.

In our Bible translations, there is vain religion and pure religion in James 1. So why would religion be inherently bad if there is such a thing as pure religion that is good? That doesn't make sense.

So instead of defining what these 'spirits' are, why not ask whether these types of Charismatic phrases are useful to use, and if they properly communicate the idea?

Well my friend, your frustrations are shared by many many many christians. When the Bible talks about fellowship it isn't talking about distance-- phone, online, etc. Fellowship is originally meant to be in person except for when it can't be. Today, all 'fellowship' is not in person, so there will definitely be a lot of frustration as a lot gets lost in translation (and lost in many other things between people).

The denominations and different belief systems are at odds, basically constantly fighting. But everyone has a piece of the truth and no one has the whole truth. Jesus meant for believers to be one body. Everyone is scattered, even within the same church building. Of course there will be chaos and frustration. Many terms (eg. Jezebel spirit) and things (eg. cars) aren't in the Bible but are relevant. The true revivals that occurred outside of the Bible are still relevant. But there are invisible divides and walls between christians, especially different denominations, and they can't understand or be peaceful with each other. Jesus will need to rehaul the churches before all the confusion and frustration go away and everything becomes simple and easy to understand again.

 

[ValleyAnt]

I'm considering making a pot of popcorn for this thread.

I thought two lifetimes had passed when I finally finished it. Thanks for reminding me to keep things short-- short meaning at least two type-written pages.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Well my friend, your frustrations are shared by many many many christians. When the Bible talks about fellowship it isn't talking about distance-- phone, online, etc. Fellowship is originally meant to be in person except for when it can't be. Today, all 'fellowship' is not in person, so there will definitely be a lot of frustration as a lot gets lost in translation (and lost in many other things between people).

The denominations and different belief systems are at odds, basically constantly fighting. But everyone has a piece of the truth and no one has the whole truth. Jesus meant for believers to be one body. Everyone is scattered, even within the same church building. Of course there will be chaos and frustration. Many terms (eg. Jezebel spirit) and things (eg. cars) aren't in the Bible but are relevant. The true revivals that occurred outside of the Bible are still relevant. But there are invisible divides and walls between christians, especially different denominations, and they can't understand or be peaceful with each other. Jesus will need to rehaul the churches before all the confusion and frustration go away and everything becomes simple and easy to understand again.

I'll ask you the same thing I ask everyone who posts about unity. What would this look like, how do you see it playing out, and what would the end result look like? I ask because I truly don't know; I'm not baiting you.

 

[ValleyAnt]

I'll ask you the same thing I ask everyone who posts about unity. What would this look like, how do you see it playing out, and what would the end result look like? I ask because I truly don't know; I'm not baiting you.

Bait or not, I don't argue anyway so baiters are wasters (of time).

Strange question about what unity is, IMO. If you can explain what unity looks like in your physical body-- with every part and organ in its place-- then I can explain what the unity I'm talking about looks like. There's a saying that a picture is worth a thousand words. You simply can't explain everything.

If you've ever been to an art gallery or just gone looking at paintings, you realize that not everything can be put into words. But the Bible says that a.) when believers agree agreeably in agreement (perfect unity among the believers) and b.) they also allow the Holy Spirit the freedom to take the lead (order from the leadership on down to everyone else), then within that dynamic c.) you see God's blessings flow without limitations (answered prayer, healings, deliverance, restoration of loss and lack, miracles). Or as David put it in Psalm 133:

"Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! It is like the precious oil upon the head, running down on the beard, the beard of Aaron, running down on the edge of his garments. It is like the dew of Hermon, descending upon the mountains of Zion; for there the Lord commanded the blessing— life forevermore."

 

[ResidentAlien]

Bait or not, I don't argue anyway so baiters are wasters (of time).

Strange question about what unity is, IMO. If you can explain what unity looks like in your physical body-- with every part and organ in its place-- then I can explain what the unity I'm talking about looks like. There's a saying that a picture is worth a thousand words. You simply can't explain everything.

If you've ever been to an art gallery or just gone looking at paintings, you realize that not everything can be put into words. But the Bible says that a.) when believers agree agreeably in agreement (perfect unity among the believers) and b.) they also allow the Holy Spirit the freedom to take the lead (order from the leadership on down to everyone else), then within that dynamic c.) you see God's blessings flow without limitations (answered prayer, healings, deliverance, restoration of loss and lack, miracles). Or as David put it in Psalm 133:

"Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! It is like the precious oil upon the head, running down on the beard, the beard of Aaron, running down on the edge of his garments. It is like the dew of Hermon, descending upon the mountains of Zion; for there the Lord commanded the blessing— life forevermore."

Is there anything left in the current system that is salvageable, or will those who desire unity have to start from scratch? Unity is a great ideal, I'm just wondering how we get from point A to point B in your estimation.

 

[ValleyAnt]

Is there anything left in the current system that is salvageable, or will those who desire unity have to start from scratch? Unity is a great ideal, I'm just wondering how we get from point A to point B in your estimation.

It's an issue that's both complex and simple. The Bible has all the answers and the Holy Spirit further expounds on the Bible answers. I'll make a reminder to respond later today.

Meanwhile you'll find what is basically the entire summary of the answer to the problem in 2Chronicles 7:14.

 

[GWH]

I'm considering making a pot of popcorn for this thread.

Why? Did you empty it for the No Rapture thread?

 

[GWH]

I'm making this distinction because there is a distinction. Don't worry too much about the exact words used. We use words to communicate so the words might not be correct but the principles are.

I've always been inquisitive since I was a little kid: guessing and speculating aren't enough for me; I have to know for certain. And from childhood I was always interested in making distinctions, even very fine distinctions, between similar words and similar things. I remember when I was about seven years old, for instance, mulling over the distinctions of the three very similar words recognize, realize, notice. I don't like learning just to have information on the brain but to have facts and truths that can enhance my and others' lives. I like to help people recognize whatever it is they are dealing with, struggling with, or encountering so they can proceed with [some better] understanding.

So, does it help to know the difference between the religious spirit and the Pharisee spirit? Yes, if you are sincerely wanting to spiritually mature; if you genuinely are working on your relationship with God. If you are a passive christian, you don't need to 'know' anything except that you're going to Heaven (which you might not be) and you're set. But if you're serious about growing in Christ and walking with God, then having discernment is absolutely mandatory for you, almost like the oxygen you breathe (but maybe more like the food you eat with the 'fear of the Lord' being air and 'wisdom' being water).

Many of you have probably heard of 'the religious spirit'. The charismatics accuse the Baptists of having it; the evangelicals accuse the pentecostals of having it. Everyone is pointing fingers, but what is the religious spirit. Here's a quick synopsis of both:

1. Religious Spirit. While evil spirits will attach to anything that is dirty, sinful, etc., the religious spirit isn't a literal spirit. (Again, there are plenty of spirits who will attach to the lives of people with a religious spirit.) The religious spirit is, if we can call it this, a mindset. When a person approaches God not according to how He wants to approach but how they or their church or their society or traditions say to approach God, that person is 'operating in a 'religious spirit'. God requires that people approach Him a certain way (yes, even through Christ); when people approach another way, this way is 'strange' and what we call 'operating in a religious spirit'. This passage might be the most concise example of "true religion before God the Father" vs. 'the religious spirit':

"Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, each took his censer and put fire in it, put incense on it, and offered strange fire before the Lord which He had not commanded them. So fire went out from the Lord and devoured them, and they died before the Lord. And Moses said to Aaron, 'This is what the Lord spoke, saying: "By those who come near Me I must be regarded as holy; and before all the people I must be glorified."'" (Leviticus 10:1-3.)

True religion approaches God with reverence (regards Him as holy and acts accordingly); believers who approach God this way are the only ones who can glorify Him. Why? Because kings and important people don't presence just anywhere. Sanctifying yourself (living holy) and then approaching God in reverence prepares the way for Him to 'come near': that's the red carpet, the limos, the expensive hotel, the five-star treatment as we do it here. Nadab and Abihu were priests; they were allowed to offer fire from the incense. So why was God angry and what is strange fire? God was angry because they offered the incense at a time He hadn't told them to do so: they were doing religion (ie. approaching God) their own way. This is the way many christians live without knowing it because people only know what they're taught and usually do what everyone around them is doing. The religious spirit doesn't make people bad (though ugly attitudes like self-righteousness, false goodness, and pride-- and negative things like confusion, error, and spiritual darkness-- are usually attached to it). Religious people are basically always harmless as in overtly. On the other hand...

2. Pharisee Spirit: This is an advanced form of the religious spirit. The difference here is this one either has position/power or thinks it has or should have position/power. This is the one that killed Jesus. The common man of Jesus's time followed the religious leaders since they were the leaders. (Jesus even told the people, "You must be careful to do everything [the religious leaders] tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach" -- Matt. 23:3). This spirit is also the one that chased and persecuted the apostles, killed Stephen, persecuted the early Church, etc. When thinking of the Pharisee spirit, the picture that comes to mind is the Sanhedrin-- the council of Jewish ruling religious leaders of Jesus's time. (But when thinking about the religious spirit, all that comes to mind is 'error' or 'unwitting error' or 'ignorance'.) People who simply 'have a religious spirit' don't care much if others disagree with their views; they might argue it a little but aren't invested in it. On the other hand, people with a Pharisee spirit believe they are authorities of some type, tip their hand (ie. unwittingly expose their arrogance), and will question [the gall of/challenge] people who disagree with them. They will insist that a person they dislike must submit to them in some way, whether by responding to their demands or questions or in some other way. It was this spirit that in Jesus's times demanded things like, "By what authority do You do these [miracles], and who gave You the authority to do these things" (to Jesus, Mark 11:28) and "By what power or by what name have you done this" (to the apostles, Acts 4:7). This 'spirit' (definitely a meaner cadre of evil spirits attached to this one) makes a person believe they are or should be the authority and look down on anyone who doesn't agree with or think like them. The 'Pharisee spirit' (Jewish religious leaders) killed Jesus, because it is truly wicked and absolutely hates God, while the 'religious spirit' (the regular Jews) agreed out of confusion (as usual).

Most people live under the religious spirit, so that one is harder to see unless you grab the Bible and start comparing the way the early Church met and gathered to the way you and the christians and churches you know gather (then it slowly starts to unfold, fascinating but not new). But the Pharisee spirit is easier to detect. It's combative-- even if subtly-- with the attitude that someone else should be subordinate to it. I hope that helps some people, especially if you're dealing with the Pharisee spirit. God pardons the religious spirit (christians who live their lives under it) all the time; but He never pardons the Pharisee spirit (christians who live under it, unless they specifically repent and 'come out from under it').

VA,

I commend your inquisitive spirit, but I trust you have learned by now that we know very little for certain other than that we are inquisitive. Thus, as we seek answers a humble/teachable spirit is needed in order not to become pharisaic.

Another answer you have found with which I agree is the need for discernment or making distinctions, and it is good that you recognize/realize/notice that our learning should benefit others.

The difference I see between a religious spirit and a Pharisee spirit is that the former commonly refers to someone who thinks going to church and/or confessing sins weekly on Saturday suffices, whereas the latter per JN 8 consists of having an ungodly judgmental spirit.

Yes, if you're serious/sincere about growing in Christ and walking with God, then you will have hunger for learning His Word and be blessed. (MT 5:6)

 

[Dino246]

I thought two lifetimes had passed when I finally finished it. Thanks for reminding me to keep things short-- short meaning at least two type-written pages.

It's not a comment on the length of the opening post, but on the variety and vehemence of the responses... as in "popcorn for munching while I sit back and watch the drama unfold. It's a somewhat common metaphor used on this site.

 

[Dino246]

Why? Did you empty it for the No Rapture thread?

Actually, I generally stay out of threads on that topic, including that one. It's just not an issue that concerns me.

 

[GWH]

Actually, I generally stay out of threads on that topic, including that one. It's just not an issue that concerns me.

Well, most topics warrant a little discussion, but thousands of pages?! I think we need to pray for the gift of brevity with a little levity.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Is there anything left in the current system that is salvageable, or will those who desire unity have to start from scratch? Unity is a great ideal, I'm just wondering how we get from point A to point B in your estimation.

The only thing that is salvageable is the remnant who repent. The rest will be burned to the ground.

 

[GWH]

Is there anything left in the current system that is salvageable, or will those who desire unity have to start from scratch? Unity is a great ideal, I'm just wondering how we get from point A to point B in your estimation.

Well, as you know I tried one approach on the Hermeneutics thread, but y'all petered out, so now I am continuing to try via the Kerygma approach on that thread.