The Kerygma - God's Requirement for Salvation
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“Claiming that people are forced to believe somehow because God enables them is contested though. That God enables people is another Biblical truth. “
yes but he doesn’t enable one person nd not another the gospel enables everyone sister that’s where the power is in the gospel and believing
“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”
Romans 1:16-17 KJV
he’s done his part we’re supposed to hear and believe it and be saved
yes but he doesn’t enable one person nd not another the gospel enables everyone sister that’s where the power is in the gospel and believing
“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”
Romans 1:16-17 KJV
he’s done his part we’re supposed to hear and believe it and be saved
Rom 5:18~~So then, as through one offense the result was condemnation to all mankind, so also through one act of righteousness the result was justification of life to all mankind.
2 Cor 5:19~~that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
1 John 2:2~~And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 Tim 2:4~~who wants all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Acts 16:30-31~~He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
2 Cor 5:19~~that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
1 John 2:2~~And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 Tim 2:4~~who wants all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Acts 16:30-31~~He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
@Pilgrimshope could you please just answer the question of which biblical truth I posted you object to because my premise is based solidly on biblical texts. That being that everyone is Born In the flesh and is subject to the desires of the flesh in which no good thing dwells. Among other things I said... I mean just go back to the post where I asked what you disagreed with, and or maybe the one before that... and tell me which points you do not align with.
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John 4:22 You people worship what you do not understand; we worship what we understand, because salvation is from the Jews.
Acts 17:23~~23 “For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.’ Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you.
Acts 17:30~~“Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
Rom 5:18~~So then, as through one offense the result was condemnation to all mankind, so also through one act of righteousness the result was justification of life to all mankind.
2 Cor 5:19~~that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
1 John 2:2~~And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 Tim 2:4~~who wants all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Acts 16:30-31~~He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
Acts 17:23~~23 “For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.’ Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you.
Acts 17:30~~“Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
Rom 5:18~~So then, as through one offense the result was condemnation to all mankind, so also through one act of righteousness the result was justification of life to all mankind.
2 Cor 5:19~~that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
1 John 2:2~~And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 Tim 2:4~~who wants all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Acts 16:30-31~~He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
“could you please just answer the question of which biblical truth I posted you object to because my premise is based solidly on biblical texts.”
i did sister I said I don’t agree that we’re born sinful needing to be reborn . I believe as I had explained were born having both good and evil inclinations .
I’m really not sure where you’re coming from I agree with a lot of what you said I don’t agree with the above . That we’re born wothout the ability to believe God and obey him
ehat I had said was their not sure why you had said all of that and that I didn’t agree with all of it . Then explained I don’t agree that we’re born without choice and without the ability to listen to and obey God . I believe we develope over time as we grow up. It it is t that God made us wrong and incapable it’s that we chose wrong
when you sin then you are condemned to death not before by gods will is my point or was in the comment you responded to . Which I still
Haven’t correlated lol
i did sister I said I don’t agree that we’re born sinful needing to be reborn . I believe as I had explained were born having both good and evil inclinations .
I’m really not sure where you’re coming from I agree with a lot of what you said I don’t agree with the above . That we’re born wothout the ability to believe God and obey him
ehat I had said was their not sure why you had said all of that and that I didn’t agree with all of it . Then explained I don’t agree that we’re born without choice and without the ability to listen to and obey God . I believe we develope over time as we grow up. It it is t that God made us wrong and incapable it’s that we chose wrong
when you sin then you are condemned to death not before by gods will is my point or was in the comment you responded to . Which I still
Haven’t correlated lol
Sister the phrases your using
“That God is required to open our eyes and ears and circumcise our sinful natures and give us a new heart... all those things seem to be contested”
For instance
“circumcise our sinful natures”
It’s in the doctrine the message we’re called to listen to
“And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”
Colossians 2:10-12 KJV
My point is. That it’s not something Gods gonna magically do later, he already did it and then sent the message out to everyone saying “ believe and be saved “
do you see how im
Not saying “ we save ourselves without God he did nothing for us “
Im saying the power is in hearing and believing the gospel the power to change a persons understanding of God like this
“And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.”
Matthew 23:9 KJV
“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
Matthew 6:14-15 KJV
His word sister is how God has always interacted with mankind it’s never been different. He spoke blessing to Adam and wanted them of death and Adam sinned and brought death into the world and the knowledge of good and evil into mankind’s being
he spoke a wernkng to cain to repent and do what’s right
He spoke of the flood to come and instructed by words noah in his building of the ark to save himself and family
he spoke to Abraham Noah’s descendant and made a covenant with him for all nations. He spoke to jacobs descendants from Mount Sinai he spoke to the cchildren of Israel afterwards through the prophets
finally he has spoken himself by his son Jesus Christ in the gospel .
adam could have followed Gods word but he followed temptation and deception instead . Cain didn’t have to kill his brother he chose that solution after God warned him to repent .
Noah wasn’t forced to build an ark he believed what God said to him about the flood and followed Gods instructions to build an ark to save them.
anraham didn’t have to follow Gods word when he told him to leave his home and go to an unknown land hed later find out about …abraham believes Gods word of promise and blessing like Adam and Eve didn’t , like cain didn’t ….
God didn’t create cain to murder his brother , He didn’t suggest it either . He told cain “ just do what’s right and you’ll be accepted like abel is , but if you do t do what’s right sin is crouching and waiting to grab hold of you , you must overcome it
God wasn’t telling cain an impossible answer for him to do , he was informing him so that if cain believed the lord he would have known how to be accepted. Instead cain followed the other voice in the world who led his parents astray also from what God had said to them in Eden
its the same thing for everyone we’re born in a wicked world and there’s evil influences everywhere around but we aren’t forced or pre destined to do those things satan tempts us to do evil
because as men serve evil thier eyes grow finer and simmer until they can’t hear and see and turns and be saved but as men serve God the light of his presence cleanses them
“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him,
If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
John 8:31-32 KJV
it isn’t I’ll make you free and force you to do what I want . It’s if you believe then continue in my world learn from me for my yoke is easy and burden light I’ll give you rest if you come to me and follow
humans respond to a true solid message from God that’s what the gospel is hearing the truth and believing is the power God did that for us and sent that to us that’s what makes us able ect
“That God is required to open our eyes and ears and circumcise our sinful natures and give us a new heart... all those things seem to be contested”
For instance
“circumcise our sinful natures”
It’s in the doctrine the message we’re called to listen to
“And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”
Colossians 2:10-12 KJV
My point is. That it’s not something Gods gonna magically do later, he already did it and then sent the message out to everyone saying “ believe and be saved “
do you see how im
Not saying “ we save ourselves without God he did nothing for us “
Im saying the power is in hearing and believing the gospel the power to change a persons understanding of God like this
“And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.”
Matthew 23:9 KJV
“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
Matthew 6:14-15 KJV
His word sister is how God has always interacted with mankind it’s never been different. He spoke blessing to Adam and wanted them of death and Adam sinned and brought death into the world and the knowledge of good and evil into mankind’s being
he spoke a wernkng to cain to repent and do what’s right
He spoke of the flood to come and instructed by words noah in his building of the ark to save himself and family
he spoke to Abraham Noah’s descendant and made a covenant with him for all nations. He spoke to jacobs descendants from Mount Sinai he spoke to the cchildren of Israel afterwards through the prophets
finally he has spoken himself by his son Jesus Christ in the gospel .
adam could have followed Gods word but he followed temptation and deception instead . Cain didn’t have to kill his brother he chose that solution after God warned him to repent .
Noah wasn’t forced to build an ark he believed what God said to him about the flood and followed Gods instructions to build an ark to save them.
anraham didn’t have to follow Gods word when he told him to leave his home and go to an unknown land hed later find out about …abraham believes Gods word of promise and blessing like Adam and Eve didn’t , like cain didn’t ….
God didn’t create cain to murder his brother , He didn’t suggest it either . He told cain “ just do what’s right and you’ll be accepted like abel is , but if you do t do what’s right sin is crouching and waiting to grab hold of you , you must overcome it
God wasn’t telling cain an impossible answer for him to do , he was informing him so that if cain believed the lord he would have known how to be accepted. Instead cain followed the other voice in the world who led his parents astray also from what God had said to them in Eden
its the same thing for everyone we’re born in a wicked world and there’s evil influences everywhere around but we aren’t forced or pre destined to do those things satan tempts us to do evil
because as men serve evil thier eyes grow finer and simmer until they can’t hear and see and turns and be saved but as men serve God the light of his presence cleanses them
“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him,
If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
John 8:31-32 KJV
it isn’t I’ll make you free and force you to do what I want . It’s if you believe then continue in my world learn from me for my yoke is easy and burden light I’ll give you rest if you come to me and follow
humans respond to a true solid message from God that’s what the gospel is hearing the truth and believing is the power God did that for us and sent that to us that’s what makes us able ect
I've already stated that the reason Jesus came was to provide atonement...shed blood on the cross for the remission of sin...and fulfill the law...to provide righteousness. This is what God required for salvation. The only other thing necessary for salvation is the grace of God to come to an individual in space and time wherein God reveals what He has done for them in Christ.
Everything else is simply the response of man and is the consequence of salvation, and not its cause. So while the responses of men very often testify to the reality of an inward and saving work of God, the actual responses aren't required for salvation, but merely attend it.
Everything else is simply the response of man and is the consequence of salvation, and not its cause. So while the responses of men very often testify to the reality of an inward and saving work of God, the actual responses aren't required for salvation, but merely attend it.
My phrasing is Biblical. What about the fact that God circumcises our sinful nature do you object to?
God gives us a new heart. Replacing our heart of stone with one of flesh. That is Biblical also.
We are told this is done by the Holy Spirit of God, or "the circumcision of Christ", not ourselves.
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands,
in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: <= KJV
In Him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of your sinful nature,
with the circumcision performed by Christ and not by human hands. <= BSB
Philippians 3:3
For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God,
who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh—
Ephesians 4:22-24
to put off your former way of life, your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; / to be renewed in
the spirit of your minds; / and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
We can only do that after we have been made alive in Christ (while we were yet dead in our sins). Once our sinful nature known as the flesh into which we are ALL born, has been cut away, circumcised, pictured in olden days as physical and a different body part, now signifying our heart out of which spring the desires of life, God giving us NEW ones... then such a choice as believing in God, the One True God, can be made. Until then, people are blinded by the god of this world and taken captive to the will of the devil. The flesh, within which NO GOOD dwells, how can anyone think out of that lover-of-darkness mindset, a slave to sin, suppressor of truth, hostile-to-God mind is going to choose to believe in God? Is that the issue? You think such a man can choose to believe of their own free will from that state? I realize it is for some and even you have made sounds which look like you equate being enabled with being forced, when enabling allows us to choose rightly. Nobody can come unless they are drawn, and ALL God gives Jesus will come. Is that to be called being forced in your mind?
God gives us a new heart. Replacing our heart of stone with one of flesh. That is Biblical also.
We are told this is done by the Holy Spirit of God, or "the circumcision of Christ", not ourselves.
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands,
in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: <= KJV
In Him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of your sinful nature,
with the circumcision performed by Christ and not by human hands. <= BSB
Philippians 3:3
For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God,
who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh—
Ephesians 4:22-24
to put off your former way of life, your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; / to be renewed in
the spirit of your minds; / and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
We can only do that after we have been made alive in Christ (while we were yet dead in our sins). Once our sinful nature known as the flesh into which we are ALL born, has been cut away, circumcised, pictured in olden days as physical and a different body part, now signifying our heart out of which spring the desires of life, God giving us NEW ones... then such a choice as believing in God, the One True God, can be made. Until then, people are blinded by the god of this world and taken captive to the will of the devil. The flesh, within which NO GOOD dwells, how can anyone think out of that lover-of-darkness mindset, a slave to sin, suppressor of truth, hostile-to-God mind is going to choose to believe in God? Is that the issue? You think such a man can choose to believe of their own free will from that state? I realize it is for some and even you have made sounds which look like you equate being enabled with being forced, when enabling allows us to choose rightly. Nobody can come unless they are drawn, and ALL God gives Jesus will come. Is that to be called being forced in your mind?
this post sister is the one you wanted me to go back to ? And tell you what I was saying about not agreeing with everything you said ?
This part is what I don’t agree with sister respectfully of course I hope you understand lol
“in the flesh within which NO good dwells, as all most certainly are born that way “
My opinion or “what I believe “ is that we aren’t born that way we become that way later through the the exploitation of our free Will when we follow sin because of the lust that’s in us through the worlds influences “ lusts of the eyes , lusts of the flesh , pride of life “ lies of the devil as well.
Before this verse your acknowledging is biblical truth and I agree it’s a true statement and relevant to this talk
“For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.”
Romans 7:14, 18
My point is that before we get there he’s already said this
“For I was alive without the law once:
but when the commandment came, sin revived,
and I died.
And the commandment, which was ordained to life,
I found to be unto death.
For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.”
Romans 7:9-12 KJV
then of course he explains how he’s been sold into sin and has become a captive of the knowledge of good and evil and law of sin it’s
“I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
( that’s not meant to be within man it’s there because they are the forbidden fruit we were supposed to always just believe God )
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.”
Romans 7:21-23 KJV
So what im saying is we aren’t born dead we serve sin awhile and become corrupted and desire it more and more and become that way We aren’t born that way is my own unofficial opinion and where I had disagreed.
“and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.”
Matthew 18:3 KJV
those children aren’t born and already condemned they haven’t become corrupted by the world yet. I don’t believe. But time in this world corrupted our minds and hearts
“For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof:
but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.”
1 John 2:15-17 KJV
This worlds hard on a human bieng . We maybe believe on something that doesn’t work out or turn out to be true and it causes a flaw a doubt later an issue . someone commits a harsh thing against us . Or Maybe someone watches a lot of pornography or spends all his time at a dance club.ect so many bad influences in the world those things go into our mind and heart and cause issues just as the things of God we take in redeem and build us up in his things , the worlds things year is down and turn us away from his things sort of a microcosm in Eden
I believe ( my old foolish opinion only nothing special just discussing here ) we develope a sinful nature the more of the worlds sinful things we engage in before we rewlly Know any better and then later we find Jesus and the need for repentance.
i believe God creates people that are capable and full of potential . To either impact the world for Good or bad and then he places them in the garden and tells them the way to go but there’s also the worlds voice pulling by them away from it like in Eden. But some actually have walked in his ways that he acknolwedges like Enoch , noah , Daniel , job and of course others but I do t think humans are born corrupt and without a choice
“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;
whether of sin unto death,
or of obedience unto righteousness?
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin,
but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.”
Romans 6:16-17
This part is what I don’t agree with sister respectfully of course I hope you understand lol
“in the flesh within which NO good dwells, as all most certainly are born that way “
My opinion or “what I believe “ is that we aren’t born that way we become that way later through the the exploitation of our free Will when we follow sin because of the lust that’s in us through the worlds influences “ lusts of the eyes , lusts of the flesh , pride of life “ lies of the devil as well.
Before this verse your acknowledging is biblical truth and I agree it’s a true statement and relevant to this talk
“For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.”
Romans 7:14, 18
My point is that before we get there he’s already said this
“For I was alive without the law once:
but when the commandment came, sin revived,
and I died.
And the commandment, which was ordained to life,
I found to be unto death.
For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.”
Romans 7:9-12 KJV
then of course he explains how he’s been sold into sin and has become a captive of the knowledge of good and evil and law of sin it’s
“I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
( that’s not meant to be within man it’s there because they are the forbidden fruit we were supposed to always just believe God )
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.”
Romans 7:21-23 KJV
So what im saying is we aren’t born dead we serve sin awhile and become corrupted and desire it more and more and become that way We aren’t born that way is my own unofficial opinion and where I had disagreed.
“and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.”
Matthew 18:3 KJV
those children aren’t born and already condemned they haven’t become corrupted by the world yet. I don’t believe. But time in this world corrupted our minds and hearts
“For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof:
but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.”
1 John 2:15-17 KJV
This worlds hard on a human bieng . We maybe believe on something that doesn’t work out or turn out to be true and it causes a flaw a doubt later an issue . someone commits a harsh thing against us . Or Maybe someone watches a lot of pornography or spends all his time at a dance club.ect so many bad influences in the world those things go into our mind and heart and cause issues just as the things of God we take in redeem and build us up in his things , the worlds things year is down and turn us away from his things sort of a microcosm in Eden
I believe ( my old foolish opinion only nothing special just discussing here ) we develope a sinful nature the more of the worlds sinful things we engage in before we rewlly Know any better and then later we find Jesus and the need for repentance.
i believe God creates people that are capable and full of potential . To either impact the world for Good or bad and then he places them in the garden and tells them the way to go but there’s also the worlds voice pulling by them away from it like in Eden. But some actually have walked in his ways that he acknolwedges like Enoch , noah , Daniel , job and of course others but I do t think humans are born corrupt and without a choice
“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;
whether of sin unto death,
or of obedience unto righteousness?
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin,
but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.”
Romans 6:16-17