The Effect of Eve's Sin on Women

[Dino246]

We have to remember , when Paul said "i don’t allow a woman to teach" we have to understand why Paul said that, the problem that Paul was addressing was, that these women of the (church) was taking tje gathering of Gods people, and making mockery , by using the opportunity to make it more about themselves and mot Gods word was.1 Timothy 2 vers 9, he(Paul), says,let these woman be modest, and dont make Gods gathering a fashion show, ( in simple terms)

Which they were doing because they had just been saved out of pagan gnostic cults in which women were in charge and taught all manner of contrabiblical errors. It's not simply about immodest or imprudent Christian women.

 

[Beliver]

Which they were doing because they had just been saved out of pagan gnostic cults in which women were in charge and taught all manner of contrabiblical errors. It's not simply about immodest or imprudent Christian women.

 

[Dino246]

(blank post)

Was there something you intended to add here?

 

[Beliver]

Of course, its not only that , its just one of those problems Paul was addressing,tje order in the Bible is, God the father,Jesus the Son, Men, wife,

 

[Beliver]

Of course, its not only that , its just one of those problems Paul was addressing,tje order in the Bible is, God the father,Jesus the Son, Men, wife,

Was there something you intended to add here?

Paul, allows women to help other women and teach the Word, but under authority of a man, of you remember in the Bible , Paul slso had women helping Paul, like Phobe, clement, Aquila, Syentche and so on, tjere were his helpers in the field

 

[Beliver]

Paul, allows women to help other women and teach the Word, but under authority of a man, of you remember in the Bible , Paul slso had women helping Paul, like Phobe, clement, Aquila, Syentche and so on, tjere were his helpers in the field

Sorry, im not a typer or text kind of guy

 

[Dino246]

Paul, allows women to help other women and teach the Word, but under authority of a man

Where is the bolded part in Scripture?

of you remember in the Bible , Paul slso had women helping Paul, like Phobe, clement, Aquila, Syentche and so on, tjere were his helpers in the field

I'm well aware of that, thanks.

 

[GWH]

Right Jesus death remitted sin and the curses and consequences of the Old Testament rule of men are gone in him

Yes, which makes discussion of such rather moot at this point in time. PTL!

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

FWIW the Greek word for woman is the same word for wife. A wife (body) is obviously subject to her husband (head), but no unmarried woman is under a man IMO, except perhaps her father

 

[Dino246]

Paul, allows women to help other women and teach the Word, but under authority of a man, of you remember in the Bible , Paul slso had women helping Paul, like Phobe, clement, Aquila, Syentche and so on, tjere were his helpers in the field

I should have read more carefully earlier; Clement and Aquila are males. Chloe and Priscilla are probably the names you meant.

 

[Webers.Home]

.
● Gen 3:16 . . and he shall rule over you.

That particular rule has little to do with gender. It's all about primogeniture.

Adam was created first; and that was directly from dirt. Afterwards, Eve was
constructed but not directly from dirt-- instead, she was constructed with
material taken from Adam's body. So then, he was her senior and she was
his junior. Had Eve been constructed directly from dirt she would've been
Adam's equal but coming from his body makes her more like a daughter;
and to my knowledge; daughters are never equal to their daddy.

Gen 3:16 has yet to be rescinded, for example:

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the
head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

It never seems to fail that somebody will actually attempt to refute Paul's
instructions in a pie fight with other of his instructions, to wit:

"You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were
baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew
nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ
Jesus." (Gal 3:26-28)

(chuckle) Paul pitted against Paul; the clash of the titans, only in this event,
both titans are one and the same titan. Yes, men and women lose their
distinctions in the spiritual sphere, but not in the natural sphere.

For example Jesus and God are unified, yet there is a hierarchy in the
Divinity because the head of Christ is God. In like manner, men and women
are unified in Christ, yet there remains a hierarchy in humanity because the
man is the head of the woman.

NOTE: Beware becoming militant about this because it's neither a gender
issue, an intelligence issue, a competency issue, a strength issue, or a
maturity issue. This particular arrangement is based solely upon seniority.
(1Tim 2:12-13)
_

 

[Dino246]

.
● Gen 3:16 . . and he shall rule over you.

That particular rule has little to do with gender. It's all about primogeniture.

Adam was created first; and that was directly from dirt. Afterwards, Eve was
constructed but not directly from dirt-- instead, she was constructed with
material taken from Adam's body. So then, he was her senior and she was
his junior. Had Eve been constructed directly from dirt she would've been
Adam's equal but coming from his body makes her more like a daughter;
and to my knowledge; daughters are never equal to their daddy.

Gen 3:16 has yet to be rescinded, for example:

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the
head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

It never seems to fail that somebody will actually attempt to refute Paul's
instructions in a pie fight with other of his instructions, to wit:

"You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were
baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew
nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ
Jesus." (Gal 3:26-28)

(chuckle) Paul pitted against Paul; the clash of the titans, only in this event,
both titans are one and the same titan. Yes, men and women lose their
distinctions in the spiritual sphere, but not in the natural sphere.

For example Jesus and God are unified, yet there is a hierarchy in the
Divinity because the head of Christ is God. In like manner, men and women
are unified in Christ, yet there remains a hierarchy in humanity because the
man is the head of the woman.

NOTE: Beware becoming militant about this because it's neither a gender
issue, an intelligence issue, a competency issue, a strength issue, or a
maturity issue. This particular arrangement is based solely upon seniority.
(1Tim 2:12-13)
_

I know Webers.Home won't see this (he has me on Ignore because I disagree with him), but for anyone else who reads these threads and actually cares about sound hermeneutics: he's wrong and his reasoning is faulty. Seniority and primogeniture have nothing to do with male-female relations. Yes, Adam was created, but Eve was effectively drawn out from Adam, so as Genesis 1:26 states clearly, "Male and female He created them." God didn't create "male" prior to creating "female"; rather, he revealed female later.

The quote from 1 Corinthians 11 refers only within a marital relationship and doesn't apply anywhere else. See post 129 above.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

No hierarchy exists in the kingdom of God that places a man above a woman, except in the marriage relationship because the two are one body.

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:27-28​

 

[Pilgrimshope]

That's an incomplete sentence. Try again.


Yelling doesn't make your argument any more sound.


And you think there is no need for further examination, consideration, study, or independent thought? Okay....


And what does the latter part mean, exactly? Scripture is clear that people aren't saved by having children, but by believing in Jesus Christ. So, unless you can explain what Paul meant, such that the explanation is coherent with the rest of your position, then you have more homework to do.


And you aren't thinking things through.


Both are perfectly explained if Paul is refuting gnostic errors.


You provide your explanation first, please.


Again, women are not saved through bearing children.


No, my issue is with your misinterpretation of God's word.


Yes... and you have just charged God with stupidity and moral corruption. Think again!


More unnecessary yelling.


Your position is incoherent. Either women and men are equal under Christ, and have equal authority, or not.


Yes, I know Paul wrote the letter. That's not in question. Don't waste words to argue about things on which we agree.

‬
Your interpretation of Paul's words here makes no sense in light of Galatians 3:28.


Nobody is trying to "erase" anything. I am saying outright that some of the words attributed to Paul probably are not Paul's words. It's that simple. A little punctuation would clarify the whole matter.


NO HE DOES NOT! That's a gross misinterpretation. See above about charging God with stupidity.


It's just your interpretation, which is incoherent.


Again, your position is incoherent. You clearly have not looked up the meaning of the word because you remain immersed in it.

You’re just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point o feel like . You Can’t acknolwedge basic statements . And I do t want to childr you down an argument rabbit hole lol so I’ll just make this my last attempt

we have to be willing to be corrected by the scripture and not eliminate it when we don’t like to hear it . That’s our Will working against us.

God said this

“Unto the woman he said, ( you seem to be missing this I’m just showing you that it’s there in your Bible )

I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. (You don’t seem to be reading this part of what God clearly said as if I’m creating it all to support what an apostle of Jesus said 😅tbat you have also rejected ….I don’t have to defend anything God said or paul said friend . I would need to defend rejecting it I’d say but lol )

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, ( again you seem to not like that part of what’s there but you shouldn’t think it’s wrong )

and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

( thenas a result )

So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:16-17, 24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and then of course the plain statement of Paul which also you are seemingly rejecting

“Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭

You aren’t offended by me but by scripture in a biblical discussion forum….in a discussion about the subject Paul’s talking about . I don’t really know what to say you won’t accept what is there.

the great part though is that’s taken away in Christ , it’s part of the curses throughout the world

maybe try not to take everything personal and actually consider what God said in the beginning about it when it happened . Which I’ve shared with you

And consider that Paul also said something that I shared in a discussion about this subject.

Im sorry you got offended but I’m too old to argue for no reason and shouldn’t need to defend the validity of the holy Bible in a Bible discussion forum .

You should consider what Paul said not only there ,but in other places it will make you less offended by that part of what he was explaining.

and understand it’s mankind getting back to this place before they sinned

“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:27-

another clear example moses words on his law notice the husbands authority over the woman’s situation

“But if her husband hath utterly made them void on the day he heard them; then whatsoever proceeded out of her lips concerning her vows, or concerning the bond of her soul, shall not stand: her husband hath made them void; and the LORD shall forgive her.

Every vow, and every binding oath to afflict the soul, her husband may establish it, or her husband may make it void.

But if her husband altogether hold his peace at her from day to day; then he establisheth all her vows, or all her bonds, which are upon her: he confirmeth them, because he held his peace at her in the day that he heard them.

But if he shall any ways make them void after that he hath heard them; then he shall bear her iniquity.


These are the statutes, which the LORD commanded Moses, between a man and his wife, between the father and his daughter, being yet in her youth in her father's house.”
‭‭Numbers‬ ‭30:12-16‬ ‭

Men’s authority over women like that isn’t Gods Will Gods Will is in the beginning when man and women were equal partners “ considered one flesh “

That disposition is what Paul’s explaining there of man’s authority over a woman he’s explaining his reasoning of why to Timothy.

We can know why in tbe ot it was like it was why did man have so much authority over a woman ? The things Paul’s explaining is why …..consider those things in scripture ot teaches us if we don’t reject them in

 

[Pilgrimshope]

That this "Faith" in Hebrews, means to me, is putting my trust, my belief in something or someone (Jesus)that i have never seen, but not only a mental assessment, but an action also that allows me to reflect that hope i have, in the thing i put my trust and belief in

that’s a good answer it reminds me of the example of Noah in that chapter and Noah’s salvation by faith

“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet,

moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house;

by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

remember God looked upon him with grace and then he told him about the flood to come which Noah couldn’t see , but he believed in the lord who commanded him to build the ark and be saved and receive a new covenant and inherit the earth


“But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

( Noah couldn’t see this yet but he had to believe Gods word and build the ark as he was instructed by God promising to save him and all his family if he did obey )

Make thee an ark of gopher wood; ( he gives Noah many instructions for the ark and promises )
But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.


…..Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:8, 11-14, 18, 22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

noah is a good example of being saved by grace and through faith according to Hebrews there. That whole chapter is really great for teaching about faith and how if you believe in God , why wouldn’t you believe what he said ? Even though you can’t actually see it yet ?

“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet,

moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house;”

 

[Pilgrimshope]

What about you ?

i believe it’s like this

“And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.

And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭10:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1-2, 4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still.

And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭4:39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’m not sure that makes sense but

 

[Dino246]

You’re just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point o feel like .

You feel what you feel, but your assessment is completely incorrect. I am disagreeing with you because I am confident that your position is wrong and warrants refutation.

You Can’t acknolwedge basic statements .

Cite one "basic statement" that you think I "can't acknowledge".

And I do t want to childr you down an argument rabbit hole lol so I’ll just make this my last attempt

Rabbit hole? This topic has important and lasting implications for our ecclesiology so it is worth getting correct.

we have to be willing to be corrected by the scripture and not eliminate it when we don’t like to hear it . That’s our Will working against us.

Incoherence is to be questioned regardless of its location. If a plain reading of Scripture does not make sense, it must be considered that the plain sense is not the correct interpretation.

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife,

Why are you yelling?

( again you seem to not like that part of what’s there but you shouldn’t think it’s wrong )

"Like" has nothing to do with it. I am well aware of those words, but they have nothing to do with my argument.

and then of course the plain statement of Paul which also you are seemingly rejecting ‭

You seem to consider any challenge to your interpretation as "rejecting Scripture". That's just argumentative on your part.

You aren’t offended by me but by scripture

I'm not offended by Scripture at all. I consider your interpretation of Scripture incoherent. Maybe the big bold words will get your attention and you won't keep misrepresenting my response.

Go and look up the definition of the word INCOHERENT, as you still haven't done so.

maybe try not to take everything personal

I'm not taking any of this personally. I'm rather enjoying shooting down your position because it is so ridiculous.

but I’m too old to argue for no reason and shouldn’t need to defend the validity of the holy Bible in a Bible discussion forum .

You're trying to defend the wrong thing, but despite me telling you repeatedly, you haven't understood it.

another clear example moses words on his law notice the husbands authority over the woman’s situation

Wife, not "woman". That's an important distinction, and regardless, Christians aren't under the Law of Moses, so it is functionally irrelevant.

That disposition is what Paul’s explaining there of man’s authority over a woman he’s explaining his reasoning of why to Timothy.

We disagree. You have no good evidence for your interpretation other than your interpretation of Genesis 3:16, which makes your reasoning circular and therefore fallacious.

 

[GWH]

No hierarchy exists in the kingdom of God that places a man above a woman, except in the marriage relationship because the two are one body.

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:27-28​

Amen. And whether a man rules the roost is debatable, since in the body the head should not demean the foot (1CR 12:21).

 

[Webers.Home]

.
The Bible teaches that men were made in the image and glory of God. (1Cor
11:7a) Does that make men equal to God? No. The Bible also teaches that
women were made in the image and glory of men. (1Cor 11:7b) Does that
make women equal to men? No. In neither example does "image and/or
glory" indicate equality when it's only meant to indicate origin and status.

What was at the very root of the woman's fall from innocence? It was
basically her desire for equality with God (Gen 3:4-6) So the proliferation of
Eve's daughters fighting for equality should not surprise us. It's simply each
succeeding generation of fallen women handing off Eve's torch to the next.

* Incidentally, Eve went off-reservation before she became infected with the
so-called fallen nature. So her sin was the act of an innocent woman rather
than the act of a fallen woman. Well; today's women have never at all
experienced innocence, no, they're all born in a fallen condition; which only
serves to reinforce their resistance to the divine scheme of things.

What instigated Suffrage? What instigated Feminism? What instigated ERA?
What instigated equal pay for equal work? Why is the average woman so
intent upon equality with men? Duh.

"The natural mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can
it do so. Those controlled by the natural mind cannot please God." (Rom 8:7-8)
_

 

[Magenta]

The Bible also teaches that women were made in the image and glory of men.

No it does not.