Understanding God’s election

[Cameron143]

Why (rhetorical question here) do you consistently couch your questions to those who do not agree with you, as statements on things they never said?

While the Bible does not explicitly say this, why would it even be necessary in the way we understand that today? Where and how did Adam draw his first breath? Who breathed into Him life? Hey ~ we do not understand just how fallen we are and if we did we just might shut the hee haw up. No. Really.

My questions are in response to what people post. And the reason I ask questions is so as to not assume what is being said.
As to why the questions are posed to those who hold a view different from mine, I'm interested in why people hold the positions they do. Invariably the questions would be to those with differing views because I already know the reasons why people would hold the same position.

 

[Rufus]

Oh my. Here is something you and I agree on. Mind you, it is a full moon.

Time to break out the bubbly and celebrate...

 

[Cameron143]

Absolutely...for two reasons: Gen 2:7 wherein the 'breath of life" is the Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit is called the "breath" in various places in scripture. Secondly, logically speaking Adam had to have been spiritually alive prior to his sin, otherwise how could he have died spiritually subsequent to his sin? Does not death presuppose antecedent life?

Adam had a spirit as part of his creative makeup. This doesn't mean he was indwelt by the Holy Spirit and a partaker of the divine nature.

 

[Rufus]

Why not reference Eden? Where is this land of Eden mentioned in Scripture aside from saying the garden of Eden was there??

Eden is mentioned in several places in the OT alone to wit: 2Kin 19:12; Isa 37:12; 51:3; Ezek 27:23; 28:13; 31:9, 16, 18, etc. Eden was actually a large piece of land while the Garden was located somewhere within that land. In fact, some river that flowed from Eden actually watered the garden (Gen 2:10).

 

[Magenta]

Absolutely...for two reasons: Gen 2:7 wherein the 'breath of life" is the Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit is called the "breath" in various places in scripture. Secondly, logically speaking Adam had to have been spiritually alive prior to his sin, otherwise how could he have died spiritually subsequent to his sin? Does not death presuppose antecedent life?

That is a logical fallacy to say Adam had to be spiritually alive and indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God prior to his
fall. It is more likely he would have become indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God had he eaten of the Tree of Life.

 

[Rufus]

Adam had a spirit as part of his creative makeup. This doesn't mean he was indwelt by the Holy Spirit and a partaker of the divine nature.

Then he couldn't have died spiritually, could he? If Christians are made alive by the Spirit, then how could Adam have died subsequent to fall? What you're really saying is that Adam was created in a state of spiritual death! It's only God's Spirit who gives LIFE! God himself BREATHED into Adam --- and he became a LIVING soul or being. Also read Ezek 37 sometime. What you're postulating is illogical -- unless you don't believe that Adam died spiritually after he sinned.

 

[Magenta]

Eden is mentioned in several places in the OT alone to wit: 2Kin 19:12; Isa 37:12; 51:3; Ezek 27:23; 28:13; 31:9, 16, 18, etc. Eden was actually a large piece of land while the Garden was located somewhere within that land. In fact, some river that flowed from Eden actually watered the garden (Gen 2:10).

I see. It is still an assumption to say Cain was driven out of Eden. Genesis 4:10-13 only says he was
"driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand."
It being near to Eden or mentioned in relation to Eden does not mean it was in Eden itself.

 

[Magenta]

Then he couldn't have died spiritually, could he? If Christians are made alive by the Spirit, then how could Adam have died subsequent to fall? What you're really saying is that Adam was created in a state of spiritual death! It's only God's Spirit who gives LIFE! God himself BREATHED into Adam --- and he became a LIVING soul or being. Also read Ezek 37 sometime. What you're postulating is illogical -- unless you don't believe that Adam died spiritually after he sinned.

Are you postulating that Adam was made immortal and lost his immortality upon disobedience?

 

[Rufus]

That is a logical fallacy to say Adam had to be spiritually alive and indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God prior to his
fall. It is more likely he would have become indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God had he eaten of the Tree of Life.

See my reply to Cameron. What's illogical is that your theory (and Cam's) would mean that God created Adam in a state of spiritual death. There are numerous scriptures that teach that God is the source of LIFE, most especially the most important form of life...spiritual!

Either Adam came into this world as living soul unto God or he was created with a dead soul. There is no third option. So, which is it?

 

[Genez]

Yes,I know that.

So, the fall of Adam was a part of God's plan to deal with the denials of Satan which he gave when he fell.

 

[Magenta]

See my reply to Cameron. What's illogical is that your theory (and Cam's) would mean that God created Adam in a state of spiritual death. There are numerous scriptures that teach that God is the source of LIFE, most especially the most important form of life...spiritual!

Either Adam came into this world as living soul unto God or he was created with a dead soul. There is no third option. So, which is it?

Adam became a living soul when God breathed the breath of life into him. All flesh has this breath of life.
Having the breath of life does NOT equate to being indwelt with/by the Holy Spirit of God.

 

[Rufus]

I see. It is still an assumption to say Cain was driven out of Eden. Genesis 4:10-13 only says he was
"driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand."
It being near to Eden or mentioned in relation to Eden does not mean it was in Eden itself.

Then why not reference the actual place where Cain and Abel lived instead of Eden, if in fact they didn't live in Eden? It reads more naturally if Eden was the actual place and this would account for the specific reference to Eden in Gen 4:16.

 

[Rufus]

Adam became a living soul when God breathed the breath of life into him. All flesh has this breath of life.
Having the breath of life does NOT equate to being indwelt with/by the Holy Spirit of God.

Really? Have chapter and verse for your theory?

 

[Genez]

Absolutely...for two reasons: Gen 2:7 wherein the 'breath of life" is the Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit is called the "breath" in various places in scripture. Secondly, logically speaking Adam had to have been spiritually alive prior to his sin, otherwise how could he have died spiritually subsequent to his sin? Does not death presuppose antecedent life?

"Then the LORD God formed the man out of the dust of the ground and breathed
into his nostrils the breath of life (lives), and the man became a living soul."

The typical translation states that the Lord breathed into the nostrils of the lifeless body, the breath of life.

But?

The Hebrew says, "breath of lives." Its a plurality!

 

[Magenta]

Then why not reference the actual place where Cain and Abel lived instead of Eden, if in fact they didn't live in Eden? It reads more naturally if Eden was the actual place and this would account for the specific reference to Eden in Gen 4:16.

I simply accept what the text says and try not to add to it.

Many have trouble doing this. It is like pulling teeth with some to get them to admit they add to Scripture.
It has become such a habit with them that they make their assumptions equal to what is written.

 

[Magenta]

Really? Have chapter and verse for your theory?

Genesis 6:17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens,
every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish. Genesis 7:15 And
they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

 

[Genez]

Adam became a living soul when God breathed the breath of life into him. All flesh has this breath of life.
Having the breath of life does NOT equate to being indwelt with/by the Holy Spirit of God.

Before the Lord breathed into his nostrils?
There was only a lifeless body.
No soul!

And.... It was the 'breath of lives.'
Plurality of lives.
Both soul and human spirit.

 

[Rufus]

Are you postulating that Adam was made immortal and lost his immortality upon disobedience?

Good question. I haven't really given that much thought but...it's very likely that Adam was created as a "living being" in the fullest sense of this phrase. God certainly intended for Adam to live and to enjoy and to serve his Creator forever, which accounts for why Adam was "very good".

The simple, plain truth here is this maxim: Only the living can die -- whether we're talking about physical or spiritual life. Dead people cannot die, notwithstanding the teaching of the second death which is not relevant to what happened at the Fall. So...you and Cam and others will have to wrestle with this maxim. If Adam wasn't created with spiritual life, then he came into this world the same way we all did -- in state of spiritual death. But that would mean that Adam did not die spiritually on the day he ate because he had already been created in a state of spiritual death. So not only do you have a logical fallacy to deal with, but you won't be able to reconcile your theory with Gen 2:17. How could spiritually dead Adam have died a second time on the day he disobeyed?

 

[Rufus]

Genesis 6:17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens,
every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish. Genesis 7:15 And
they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

This passage speaks to what kind of life that was put into the ark. The phrase "breath of life" is referring to nostril breathing creatures (Gen 7:22) -- humans and animals alike. The passage says nothing about any creature becoming a "living soul". Nor does scripture teach that God breathed life into animals, etc. Or that any of the animals were spiritually living beings or souls.

 

[Magenta]

Good question. I haven't really given that much thought but...it's very likely that Adam was created as a "living being" in the fullest sense of this phrase. God certainly intended for Adam to live and to enjoy and to serve his Creator forever, which accounts for why Adam was "very good".

The simple, plain truth here is this maxim: Only the living can die -- whether we're talking about physical or spiritual life. Dead people cannot die, notwithstanding the teaching of the second death which is not relevant to what happened at the Fall. So...you and Cam and others will have to wrestle with this maxim. If Adam wasn't created with spiritual life, then he came into this world the same way we all did -- in state of spiritual death. But that would mean that Adam did not die spiritually on the day he ate because he had already been created in a state of spiritual death. So not only do you have a logical fallacy to deal with, but you won't be able to reconcile your theory with Gen 2:17. How could spiritually dead Adam have died a second time on the day he disobeyed?

I don't have to wrestle with your maxim at all because Jesus Christ was purposed from before the foundation
of the world to bring/bestow spiritual life to those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.