Convince me there is non-alcoholic wine in the Bible/communion

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He shed His blood dying
our life and joy and peace in Christ comes only through death - in Him we have died, because He died - and this death produced a new life, because He also rose.

i would argue that the strongest symbolic position is actual wine, not mere fresh grape squeezings falsely called wine.

mere welche's® is a denial of the cross.

While blood can be the result of death, blood also exists inside our body even while we are alive.
In fact, the life of the flesh is in the blood.
According to the Bible, the blood actually symbolizes life and not death.

Leviticus 17:11

"For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul." (KJV)​

Also, consider that the seven day Passover celebration was not to contain any leavened bread, which is symbolic of sin.
Leaven is a reference to "yeast." The "yeast" would make the dough of the bread to rise. Yeast naturally occurs on grape skins and begins the fermentation process when grapes are crushed, exposing the juice to the yeast. This yeast then consumes the sugars in the grape juice, producing alcohol and carbon dioxide as byproducts.

Fermentation is a type of "decay" or transformation process, as it breaks down the original components (sugars) into new substances (alcohol and carbon dioxide). This process is also associated with spoilage or degradation in some ancient and biblical views, as it changes the grape’s natural, fresh state into something different. This is why fermented wine is symbolic of sin sin or impurity, contrasting it with the purity represented by fresh, unfermented grape juice.

You also have to consider that Jesus bore our sins in His body and not in His blood.

1 Peter 2:24 says, "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."

This is important to understand because the blood actually cleanses us from all sin (See: 1 John 1:7).
Only something clean can wipe away that which is dirty like sin. Something sinful or dirty would not clean something that is dirty like sin. That makes no sense. Jesus is the spotless Lamb. Grape juice is the result of a grape being crushed or squeezed but that does not mean it is immediately fermented and highly intoxicating.



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This claim has absolutely no scriptural support; it is eisegesis and has no evidentiary power in this discussion.

1. Matthew 26:27-29 — Jesus’ Use of “Fruit of the Vine” and the Symbol of Purity

“And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.”​

• Commentary: Jesus refers to the wine as “fruit of the vine” and specifies drinking it “new” with His disciples in His Father’s kingdom. The emphasis on it being “new” suggests a pure, unfermented substance, free from decay or corruption. If we consider the blood of Christ as pure and holy, it is fitting that it be symbolized by something similarly pure and fresh. This choice of words contrasts with fermented wine, which involves a process of decay—a property seemingly inconsistent with the unblemished and holy nature of Christ’s blood. For someone questioning this interpretation, it’s worth noting that if Jesus wanted to symbolize purity, it makes sense He would use the pure, fresh fruit of the vine.

2. 1 Corinthians 5:7-8 — Symbolism of Leaven and the Call to Purity

“Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.”​

• Commentary: In this passage, Paul uses leaven as a symbol for sin and corruption, urging the church to be like “unleavened” bread—pure and free from corruption. This connects to the natural role of yeast, or leaven, which initiates a process of decay. The same yeast used in bread also naturally occurs on grape skins and begins the fermentation process, breaking down the sugars in grape juice and transforming it into alcohol. This process introduces decay, mirroring how leaven represents sin. Just as Paul instructs believers to “purge out the old leaven” to maintain spiritual purity, unfermented wine (free from the effects of yeast and decay) aligns with the symbolism of Christ’s blood as pure and undefiled. The choice of unfermented wine in the Lord’s Supper then becomes a fitting representation of sincerity and truth, as it is free from the fermenting effects that symbolize malice and wickedness.

3. Proverbs 20:1 — The Potential Harm of Fermented Wine

“Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.”​

• Commentary: Proverbs 20:1 provides a clear caution against the effects of fermented wine, linking it directly with deception and poor judgment. This verse highlights the dangers associated with fermented wine and underscores why unfermented wine is a more appropriate symbol for Christ’s blood. Fermented wine, which brings mockery and loss of wisdom, stands in stark contrast to the purity and clarity found in Christ’s sacrifice. Using unfermented wine in the Lord’s Supper preserves the symbolism of holiness and purity, avoiding associations with corruption and moral compromise.

4. Proverbs 23:31-32 — Warnings Against Fermented Wine and Its Consequences

“Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.”​

• Commentary: This passage cautions against wine that has undergone fermentation, emphasizing its potential to “bite like a serpent.” Fermentation is explicitly mentioned, as it causes the wine to “move itself aright” as it bubbles and changes. If we take wine as a symbol for Christ’s blood, using something associated with decay and harm is inconsistent with the purity of His sacrifice. For someone questioning this interpretation, it’s useful to point out that unfermented wine, free from these associations, aligns more naturally with the purity of Christ.

5. Isaiah 65:8 — The Blessing in Fresh Juice as “New Wine”

“Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants’ sakes, that I may not destroy them all.”​

• Commentary: The “new wine” in this verse is described as being “within the cluster” of the grape, clearly identifying it as the fresh juice contained within the fruit. This fresh juice is called a blessing, reinforcing the idea that unfermented juice holds purity and life. Grapes do not grow on the vine as alcoholic wine; they require time to ferment, a process that introduces decay and transformation. In other words, the blessing within the cluster is pure grape juice, not alcoholic wine.

To illustrate further, consider an analogy: if we said that “new orange smoothie” is found within an orange, it would sound nonsensical. Smoothies generally include additional ingredients such as ice, milk, or yogurt to give them a creamy texture and chill, requiring a separate process to create. Within an orange, there is simply fresh, natural juice—not an orange smoothie. Similarly, alcoholic wine is the result of fermentation, which changes the nature of the juice over time. Just as a smoothie is made by blending the orange juice with other ingredients, alcoholic wine is produced by fermenting the juice over time. Within the cluster of grapes, there is only fresh, unfermented juice—not alcoholic wine. The “new wine” here is directly identified with the purity of fresh grape juice, making it a fitting symbol of blessing, life, and purity rather than the decay associated with fermentation.

More eisegesis. There isn't any Scripture that says "fermented wine... symbolizes a process of decay".

Also see post #101. I have a few more points with some other verses.

May God bless you.



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Scripture is quite clear in refuting your baseless belief:

Deuteronomy 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

Nothing said here about drinking strong drink or highly intoxicating wine.
This part of Scripture can simply be understood as the Israelites simply possessing these substances.
There are many applications to such beverages besides getting hammered.
As I mentioned before, there are verses that allude to mixing wine with water.
Again, the Israelite would store wine in leather skin like pouches when traveling and then they would dilute it with water when consumed. This makes sense because this fits with the historical record that we read about during that region.
It was not only the Israelites that mixed wine with water, but it was other groups of people, too.
Just Google it, unless of course you simply don't want to see it.


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[Dino246]

Deuteronomy 14:26 "And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,"

Nothing said here about drinking strong drink or highly intoxicating wine.
This part of Scripture can simply be understood as the Israelites simply possessing these substances.

Well, now I am certain that you don't care what Scripture actually says, and that you will make up whatever lies you like to convince yourself that your delusional position is sound.

I'm done with you on this matter. I'm here to discuss SCRIPTURE, not your ridiculous, baseless, unscriptural fantasies.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

Scripture is quite clear in refuting your baseless belief:

Deuteronomy 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

That is God's instruction to the Israelites. "Wine or... strong drink" does not mean weak, diluted wine. God endorsed the consumption of alcohol, even strong alcoholic beverages.


It's really quite foolish to believe something is "sinful" when it is obviously endorsed in Scripture.

Wine Mixed with Water:

Several scriptures also reflect this practice of diluting wine with water:

• Revelation 14:10:
  "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation…"
  (Contrast with Psalm 75:8, where God’s judgment is poured without dilution.)
• 1 Timothy 5:23:
  "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."
  Paul’s advice here implies using a small amount of wine mixed with water for medicinal purposes.
• Proverbs 9:2 (NIV):
  "She has prepared her meat and mixed her wine; she has also set her table."
• Isaiah 1:22 (CJB):
  "Your silver is no longer pure; your wine is watered down."

Wine was often transported undiluted in leather skins and then diluted with water before use. The process of diluting wine made it safer for consumption, similar to how copper is added to silver to strengthen it for practical use. In the same way, mixing wine with water diluted its potency and made it suitable for everyday life in ancient Israel.

Extra-Biblical Sources:
Additional support for this practice can be found in 2 Maccabees 15:39, the Talmud, and writings by Justin Martyr, which document the custom of mixing wine with water. Again, all you have to do is Google it.


The 20 Warnings Against Alcohol in the Bible:

These passages caution against alcohol itself, not merely drunkenness:

Passages for the Old Testament Saint:

1. Deuteronomy 29:5-6 - God provided no grape juice or intoxicating drink in the wilderness so Israel would know Him.
2. Deuteronomy 32:33 - The enemy's wine is like the poison of serpents compared to the Israelites' "pure blood of the grape" (verse 14).
3. 1 Samuel 1:14-15 - Hannah, accused of drunkenness, said she drank no wine.
4. Proverbs 4:17 - Alcoholic drink is called the “wine of violence.”
5. Proverbs 20:1 - Wine is a mocker; strong drink is raging.
6. Proverbs 23:31 - God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.
7. Proverbs 23:32 - Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent and sting like an adder.
8. Proverbs 23:35 - Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain, inhibiting warnings. It is also habit-forming.
9. Proverbs 31:4-5 - Kings, princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol, as it perverts judgment.
10. Ecclesiastes 2:3 - The king tried everything, including intoxicating drink, to find satisfaction but did not (cf. Ecclesiastes 12:8).
11. Ecclesiastes 10:17 - A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.
12. Isaiah 5:22 - There is a woe to those who mix strong drinks.
13. Jeremiah 35:2-14 - The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.
14. Daniel 1:5-17 - Daniel and his friends refused the king’s intoxicating wine and were blessed for it.
15. Hosea 4:11 - Intoxicating wine seduces the heart.

Passages for the New Testament Saint:

1. 1 Timothy 3:2-3 - Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and avoid wine.
2. 1 Timothy 3:8 - Deacons are to be respected and not drinkers.
3. 1 Timothy 3:11 - Deacons’ wives are to be temperate and sober.
4. Titus 1:7-8 - A bishop is not to be given to wine.
5. Titus 2:2-3 - Older men and women of the church are to be temperate and not addicted to wine.

So in light of these biblical facts, we must conclude that Deuteronomy 14:26 is not implying that God is recommending the Israelite to drink strong intoxicating beverages or wines. Deuteronomy 14:26 tells them to eat. You have not highlighted any words in the KJV that state in Deuteronomy 14 that clearly says that God declared to the Israelite to drink strong beverages and wines. Possess them? Yes. Drink them? No. Wine was diluted with water by the Israelites and other countries in the region. It is only our barbarian culture that idolizes wine and other alcoholic beverages that thinks otherwise.


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[Bible_Highlighter]

Scripture is quite clear in refuting your baseless belief:

Deuteronomy 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

That is God's instruction to the Israelites. "Wine or... strong drink" does not mean weak, diluted wine. God endorsed the consumption of alcohol, even strong alcoholic beverages.


It's really quite foolish to believe something is "sinful" when it is obviously endorsed in Scripture.

Here are some historical sources that reference methods for preserving grape juice and related practices in ancient cultures, particularly in the ancient Near East and Mediterranean:

1. Boiling Grape Juice into Syrup:
   • Pliny the Elder (23–79 AD): In Natural History (Book 14), Pliny discusses various methods of preserving grape products, including boiling grape juice into a thick syrup. This process was widely known in the Roman Empire, which shared cultural and agricultural practices with the ancient Near East.
   • Columella (4–70 AD): In De Re Rustica (On Agriculture), Columella, a Roman writer on agriculture, provides detailed instructions on boiling grape juice to make sapa or defrutum—a thick syrup that could be stored for long periods without fermenting. While Columella was Roman, his works reflect agricultural practices shared widely across the Mediterranean, likely influencing or paralleling methods used in ancient Israel.
2. Cool Storage in Sealed Containers:
   • Archaeological Evidence from Ancient Israel: Excavations at various sites in Israel, such as at Tel Dan, Megiddo, and Hazor, have uncovered pithoi and other storage jars that were often stored in cooler areas, like partially underground storage pits. These jars, sometimes sealed with stoppers, were used for liquids, including wine, olive oil, and other perishable goods.
   • The Hebrew Bible (Old Testament): The Bible describes the storage of wine and other liquids in jars or vessels, often sealed. For example, Jeremiah 13:12 mentions wine stored in jars, suggesting sealed containers were used to store grape products. Although this does not directly describe preservation for grape juice specifically, it shows that ancient Israel was familiar with storing liquids in sealed jars to prevent spoilage.

There are other methods, as well.


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While the term "new wine" can refer to either grape juice or fermented wine diluted with water (depending on the context), Isaiah 65:8 is clearly in reference to grape juice as the "new wine."


Isaiah 65:8

"Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all."​

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Ask yourself: Is alcoholic wine found in the cluster of the grape or is it simply the fresh juice of the grape (i.e., grape juice)?

Can you truly say that alcoholic wine is the kind of wine that has a blessing in it?
Alcoholic wine has led to a lot of misery actually.

Side Note:

Granted, the parallel here is that the grapes are being compared to the Israelites (His servant) in being entirely destroyed. The blessing that came out of them is.... Jesus Christ.


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I will admit that yeast is naturally forming on the grape and yeast represents sin. However, we know Jesus took on the sin of the world and died in our place. However, this yeast did not ferment when it was crushed. The sin (yeast) did not grow when Jesus died for our sins but they were wiped away if we accept His free love gift by faith and continue in the faith. Yeast (Leaven) would make the bread to rise. It would be a picture of how sin puffs up a person with pride. Paul says we are to purge out the old leaven (sin). We are to walk in newness of life. Grape juice symbolizes the blood of our Lord, which takes away sin.


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May the Lord Jesus Christ bless you all.


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