I was wondering who believes you can get unsaved.
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His sheep were picked before the foundation of the world. His sheep are the elect, the ones that God has chosen to save before the foundation of the world, and the answers your question on another post you made, "Please give me the scripture that says that a saved person cannot lose salvation." Ephesians 1, Romans 8-9, 2 Timothy 1:9.
OK.
You contradicted your own point. Which means you don't understand what you are talking about. Which means you have no foundation upon which to judge my understanding of what you criticized by contradicting yourself and therein missing the whole of my post because you don't know what I'm talking about.
Hope that helps.
You contradicted your own point. Which means you don't understand what you are talking about. Which means you have no foundation upon which to judge my understanding of what you criticized by contradicting yourself and therein missing the whole of my post because you don't know what I'm talking about.
Hope that helps.
If the righteous are barely saved, what chance will the godless have? 19 So if you are suffering according to God’s will, keep on doing what is right and trust yourself to the God who made you, for he will never fail you.
21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then to turn away from the holy commandment passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”
21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then to turn away from the holy commandment passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”
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Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is of Life. and the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
note that only the dead are judged, by books, plural. and there is another book, of Life.
do you suppose any of the dead are in the book of Life?
and what about the living - are they dead?
John 5:24
Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
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So you're going to ignore all those warnings in the Bible that are there for you?
Be careful. What's popular isn't always right. You were asking people what is the truth, but you should be asking God instead. Love God's truth even when it isn't popular (which is most of the time) - so you won't stray from Him and know how He wants you to grow up in Him.
Matthew 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
You said that you struggle in certain areas of your life, but OSAS lulls you into a false sense of security. I know because I used to believe it too. That belief keeps you from growing in Christ. You might end up "knowing" a lot of Christian stuff, but be unable to live it out as God wants us to. A lot of these people who believe in it aren't really submitted to God so they live their lives without His power. I know you have admitted to certain struggles so if you want to overcome them and be more than a conqueror, than don't lean on OSAS because there is no power in that.
Please ask God to help you with all the passages that have been pointed out to you that the OSAS people are twisting and dismissing as not important or relevant to you - they actually are. I will pray for you as well that God Himself will give you understanding of all those verses. Please don't end up like these people who only have a form of godliness without the power.
I'm not going to say anymore, because the OSAS folks will swarm in like locusts and overwhelm with all their false teaching. So I will pray for you because I know prayer is a more powerful influence. I also call on all the people who have been contending against OSAS here to pray for our brother as well - he is fairly young in the Lord and we need to pray for his protection from this false teaching, so that he grows in understanding and maturity and be able to overcome and be a conqueror in every area of his life. In Jesus name I pray, Amen.
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False. As I already previously explained, in Hebrews 10:26, to "sin willfully" here carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual. Receiving the "knowledge" of the truth, but rejecting the truth by willfully remaining in sin which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows willful, habitual, continuous action.
*The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God. (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9) *Notice how I properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. *HERMENEUTICS.
The letter is addressed to "BRETHREN" but that does not mean that everyone in this large group of professing Hebrew Christians are genuine Christians. Drawing near with a true heart in full assurance of faith and holding fast the confession of our hope without wavering, is the mark of a genuine Christian. In contrast with those who fall short of drawing near to God and holding fast to the confession of their hope. These folks end up drawing back to perdition and do not believe to the saving of their soul. (Hebrews 10:39)
The saved do not sin willfully, which is a matter of practice. 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. The Amplified Bible reads - No one who is born of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, because God’s seed [His principle of life, the essence of His righteous character] remains [permanently] in him [who is born again—who is reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, and set apart for His purpose]; and he [who is born again] cannot habitually [live a life characterized by] sin, because he is born of God and longs to please Him.
Now if the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation, then we have a contradiction because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10) and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14) So in Hebrews 10:10, we clearly read ..WE have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all and in Hebrews 10:14, we read - For by one offering He has perfected for all time THOSE who are sanctified. To go from sanctified back to un-sanctified would be in contradiction here. *HERMENEUTICS.
*NOWHERE in the context does it specifically say the person who "trampled underfoot the Son of God and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant" was "saved" and/or "lost their salvation." The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 "on the surface" appears to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't always necessarily refer to salvation.
Strong's Concordance
hagiazó: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Original Word: ἁγιάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hagiazó
Phonetic Spelling: (hag-ee-ad'-zo)
Definition: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Usage: I make holy, treat as holy, set apart as holy, sanctify, hallow, purify.
*In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse (and by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul explained. So, the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved, then you would have to say that the seventh day was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), Moses saved the people after coming down off the mountain (Exodus 19:14), the priests and the Levites saved themselves (1 Chronicles 15:14), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36), the Son saved Himself (John 17:19) and many other things that do not line up with scripture. *HERMENEUTICS.
CONTINUED..
*The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God. (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9) *Notice how I properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. *HERMENEUTICS.
The letter is addressed to "BRETHREN" but that does not mean that everyone in this large group of professing Hebrew Christians are genuine Christians. Drawing near with a true heart in full assurance of faith and holding fast the confession of our hope without wavering, is the mark of a genuine Christian. In contrast with those who fall short of drawing near to God and holding fast to the confession of their hope. These folks end up drawing back to perdition and do not believe to the saving of their soul. (Hebrews 10:39)
The saved do not sin willfully, which is a matter of practice. 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. The Amplified Bible reads - No one who is born of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, because God’s seed [His principle of life, the essence of His righteous character] remains [permanently] in him [who is born again—who is reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, and set apart for His purpose]; and he [who is born again] cannot habitually [live a life characterized by] sin, because he is born of God and longs to please Him.
Now if the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation, then we have a contradiction because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10) and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14) So in Hebrews 10:10, we clearly read ..WE have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all and in Hebrews 10:14, we read - For by one offering He has perfected for all time THOSE who are sanctified. To go from sanctified back to un-sanctified would be in contradiction here. *HERMENEUTICS.
*NOWHERE in the context does it specifically say the person who "trampled underfoot the Son of God and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant" was "saved" and/or "lost their salvation." The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 "on the surface" appears to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't always necessarily refer to salvation.
Strong's Concordance
hagiazó: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Original Word: ἁγιάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hagiazó
Phonetic Spelling: (hag-ee-ad'-zo)
Definition: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Usage: I make holy, treat as holy, set apart as holy, sanctify, hallow, purify.
*In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse (and by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul explained. So, the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved, then you would have to say that the seventh day was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), Moses saved the people after coming down off the mountain (Exodus 19:14), the priests and the Levites saved themselves (1 Chronicles 15:14), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36), the Son saved Himself (John 17:19) and many other things that do not line up with scripture. *HERMENEUTICS.
CONTINUED..
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I see that you added the word salvation in verse 35. Your eisegesis is showing. The verse actually reads, "Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward." The writer of Hebrews is speaking to a very large group of Hebrews, addressing Christians with "nominal" Christians mixed in with the group. All throughout the book of Hebrews we see "nominal" Christians mixed in with genuine Christians.
Hebrews 3:8-10 says, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore, I was angry with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it.
(Just as we read in Hebrews 12:15 - See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God.. (NASB) The ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God. Not a loss of salvation here but a failure to obtain it).
Hebrews 3:18,19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So, we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.
*Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. Not stopped believing but did not believe.
In Hebrews 4:1-2, we read - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in THOSE who heard it. For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers. *Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.
In Hebrews 6:9 the writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation.
In Hebrews 10:39, we read - But we are not OF THOSE who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul.
*Note the distinction. So those who [draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul] and those who [believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.]
In regard to the lost sheep in Luke 15, in context, we see that Jesus is directing this parable to the Pharisees and scribes who complained, saying that Jesus receives sinners and eats with them, while failing to recognize because of pride and self-righteousness that they were sinners themselves. The main point of this parable is not that a believer lost their salvation and had to regain it back again, but the absolute importance of finding the one lost sheep -- there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Look at what Jesus said in Matthew 5:5 - These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
In Luke 19:10, we read - For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.” Not lost his salvation and has to get it back again.
Anyone can skim over this chapter (surface reading) and fail to read it in context and properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching their conclusion on doctrine. I'm being honest. You are being biased. ALL false religions and cults that promote salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS and there is a reason for that.
Hebrews 3:8-10 says, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore, I was angry with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it.
(Just as we read in Hebrews 12:15 - See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God.. (NASB) The ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God. Not a loss of salvation here but a failure to obtain it).
Hebrews 3:18,19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So, we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.
*Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. Not stopped believing but did not believe.
In Hebrews 4:1-2, we read - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in THOSE who heard it. For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers. *Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.
In Hebrews 6:9 the writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation.
In Hebrews 10:39, we read - But we are not OF THOSE who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul.
*Note the distinction. So those who [draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul] and those who [believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.]
In regard to the lost sheep in Luke 15, in context, we see that Jesus is directing this parable to the Pharisees and scribes who complained, saying that Jesus receives sinners and eats with them, while failing to recognize because of pride and self-righteousness that they were sinners themselves. The main point of this parable is not that a believer lost their salvation and had to regain it back again, but the absolute importance of finding the one lost sheep -- there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Look at what Jesus said in Matthew 5:5 - These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
In Luke 19:10, we read - For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.” Not lost his salvation and has to get it back again.
Anyone can skim over this chapter (surface reading) and fail to read it in context and properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching their conclusion on doctrine. I'm being honest. You are being biased. ALL false religions and cults that promote salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS and there is a reason for that.
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Love and gratitude motivated me to grow in Christ. Not fear and bondage to insecurity.
These judgment calls are well above your pay grade. You quoted from 2 Timothy 3:5, and in context, by verse 8, we read - ..so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. Not agreeing with OSAS doesn't give you the right to judge OSAS believers as not committed to God and lost.
These judgment calls are well above your pay grade. You quoted from 2 Timothy 3:5, and in context, by verse 8, we read - ..so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. Not agreeing with OSAS doesn't give you the right to judge OSAS believers as not committed to God and lost.
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True salvation results in a changed life that reflects Jesus in all their thinking and their ways. I don't believe in OSAS, but it doesn't really bother me if a person believes that as long as the evidence of the changed life is seen in them. One of my absolute favorite Christians is Dr. Charles Stanley who believes in OSAS, but is fully submitted to the Holy Spirit and reflects our Lord Jesus. (Yes, I'm talking about him in the present tense even though he went on home to be with Lord already - but he's just asleep - not DEAD dead like dead unbelievers. )
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I am going to sum this up as much as I can, but can go into greater detail on any point or thing I write if if you want later.
I actually did do the whole "respond to the alter call", thing not too long after my first son was born. I was drawn to Jesus and church by his birth and my wife starting to follow Him along with other things in my life at the time. So one day I responded and went up front, I repeated the prayer and way declared "saved" 100%, even baptized for good measure. Write down the date and take it to the bank I was told! So I thought I was a Christian at that point. The thing is, I wasn't. So time went on and years went by, 7 years after my first we had our second son and things were going great, until tragedy struck. A motorcycle wreak turned my life upside down and I lost the use of my right arm. For two years I had suicidal thoughts I could not help or stop, and it hurt constantly all day every day in waves, but bad enough to stop me in my tracks up to doubling over in pain until it stopped for a few minutes. Anyway after 2 years of this I was at a place were I felt that even if God was real, He wasn't helping me. I came to a place were I wasn't "mad with or at God", I just really didn't think there was one there anymore. So I came to a place were the doctors couldn't help me, nor "science", or money, or God apparently, but the most highlighted at this point was I couldn't do anything to help myself. I also had a very easy way out. I couldn't feel my right arm at all, so I could cut my wrist without even having to feel the bite of the blade. However I had one thing in my life I'd get to and every time it would stop me then and there.
I could not leave my boys with "my dad killed himself". I knew that no one could step up and love my boys the way their father could, my wife could find someone to love her, my job could replace me easy, my dad would get over it eventually (which couldn't have been further from the truth, it would have killed him even sooner), but I could go through the whole list and justify it, until my boys. They're why I didn't do it. Anyway all this is for a point.
After two years of this I was at home alone one day. Actually it was Sept.29, 2013, I remember this date and didn't even have to write it down, but it all came to a head. At this point I didn't even believe God was real and when I hit my knees it wasn't for any reason other than I could see my greatness and ability in perfect clarity. After 33 years of life this is what I've accomplished, I'm broken on the floor, I can never be fixed, and there's nothing I can ever do about it. I cried out "I can't do this anymore, I can't do this anymore, I can't do this anymore, world you win, I lose, and I QUIT!!!!". I didn't know at the time, but this was God granting me repentance. I picked my weeping tail up off the ground, dried myself off and went to bed.
The next day at lunchtime was when it hit me and it hit me very hard. After two years of suicidal thought every 5 minutes of every day, it hit me like a ton of bricks. "I haven't thought about killing myself all day!!!!" I mean to others it was a normal day like any other, but for me the earth just shifted under everything. I knew right then and there two things. #1. whatever this was, it was from God. #2. Jesus was His Son. I knew those to things and had a new hunger for His word. Went strait to John and by the time I was in 3 I went out to the receptionist who was a believer and told her "I think I was born again". And was, and am still to this day, but not by my power or ability to obey good enough, but because of His power and because His Spirit guides me to all truth. Okay now to answer the question, finally.
What happens when we are born again is that we see the truth about our sin and how hopelessly lost in it we are, then turn away from it. This is all by Gods power and the sacrifice Jesus took on the cross that He put what we deserve on Jesus, then He takes Jesus righteousness and puts it on us. our dead spirit is then resurrected and reconciled to His Spirit as we were created to be, reconciled after the fall to our Creator all by His power, sacrifice, and grace. We are born again into new creatures and now SEE the truth. You can no more reverse this as you can your own birth. Also I 10000000000% reject any idea that you can have this happen in truth, be transformed by the Creator of everything all by the crazy unjust murder of His Son, knowing He then emptied His wrath on Jesus for our sake, to KNOW these things and to be brought into peace with God, and choose to walk away from it. I couldn't reject that more and it clearly says that no one can snatch any of us from His hand. I understand that people say we can choose to turn away, but again I reject that as a possibility. I believe Gods power is way more than sufficient to keep us all as He says He will.
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The gate spoken of in that verse is the door to Jesus' sheepfold; about which
he said:
● John 10:9 . . I am the door; whoever enters through me shall be saved.
Were Christ an ordinary guy; then he wouldn't dare say "shall be saved" no,
he'd have to tone it down a bit and say shall be safer instead of shall be
saved. That would leave him some room for error. But when Christ says
shall be saved, he's claiming a 0.0% failure rate. That's how confident Christ
is that he will lose nothing of the sheep that his Father gives him.
● John 10:29 . . My sheep . . my Father gave them to me
Jesus' Father expects His son to be conscientious about the sheep's safety.
● John 6:39 . .This is the will of the One who sent me: that I should not lose
anything of what He gave me.
Jesus never fails to give the One what He wants.
● John 8:29 . . I always do what is pleasing to Him.
Now the thing is: were Jesus to lose even one of the sheep that his Father
entrusted to his care-- just one --then Jesus would not be able to say that
he "always" pleases the One who sent him. He could say that he pleases the
One most of the time, but certainly not always without fail.
People are actually casting a nay vote in regard to Jesus' competence when
they insist it's possible for him to lose some of the sheep that his Father
gave him, which is a huge mistake because it's necessary to believe in him
in order to obtain the benefits offered by John 3:16 and John 5:24.
Were Christ a run of the mill shepherd I would be inclined to agree with the
skeptics; but his miracles demonstrate that the good shepherd has all the
powers and abilities of the supreme being at his disposal to insure he
succeeds at keeping the sheep right where his Father wants them kept.
Now, those sheep weren't exactly a freebee, viz: the sheep didn't come
cheap. Jesus bought and paid for them himself at enormous personal
expense.
● 1Pet 1:18-19 . . For you know that it was not with perishable things such
as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed
down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a
lamb without blemish or defect.
There are people out and about who sincerely believe that Jesus' sheep--
having been bought and paid for at the price of his own blood --are in a
position to negotiate the terms of their association with Christ. They actually
believe their rightful owner would stand aside while they disown him sans
fair and equitable compensation, and walk out the door to start a new life
elsewhere, possibly with some other rancher, maybe even one of his
competitors.
There's some apropos lines in a movie called The Hunt For Red October that
go like this:
Dr. Ryan: We definitely grab the boat, sir.
National Security Advisor: Hey, wait a minute. We're not talking about some
stray pilot with a MIG. We're talking about several billion dollars' worth of
Soviet state property. They're gonna to want it back.
Duh!
● 1Cor 6:19-20 . .You are not your own; you were bought at a price.
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