1 Corinthians 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Hermeneutics: Interpreting Scripture
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1 Corinthians 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
I have to point out that "justness" is not the same thing as "righteousness", for even a corrupt and wicked judge can occasionally dispense justice; Jesus told a parable to this effect.
The statement, "God is just" means that when He exercises judgment, it is always without partiality for any reason, and that He takes into account all relevant evidence. As an aside, He's also not bound by human legalese like a statute of limitations.
One of the key lessons (for me) from my seminary training was a brief exercise where we read a passage and then summarized what it said about God. Most of the students (myself included) extrapolated from the text. The professor gently corrected us, explaining that the text says exactly what it says and no more. So in our studies, we do well to resist the temptation to claim the text says more (or different) than it actually does.
Oh no Dino246, no extrapolation from the text!
That will be a catastrophic blow for so many churches.
How could you do that?
Paul,
No, you can NOT have unity without agreeing on one interpretation of scripture. For example, if we do not agree with Paul's answer to the Philippian jailer in ACTS 16:31 that in order to be saved we must believe in the Lord Jesus, then we will not be in the one body of Christ, and if we do not agree with Jesus' prayer for unity in JN 17:20, then we will not be ecumenically minded.
No, it is NOT the quest to settle on one interpretation of scripture that causes disunity, but rather apathy about the same.
Yes, we know only in part (1 Cor. 13:9, 12), so our knowledge and unity will not be perfect, but we can try to be better at answering the prayer of Jesus.
Regarding 1CR 8:1-3, since all of us (two Pauls + me who named my son Paul) are sharing what we think we know, obviously we should agree the passage does NOT mean the solution is to know nothing but rather to know or discern correctly and humbly (cf. MT 7:3-5)--no papal infallibility.
Regarding remaining in fellowship with those who hold different interpretations of scripture: Obviously that does not include those who hold a different gospel (GL 1:6-9). Do we have agreement/unity on this interpretation of Scripture?
If we can achieve agreement/unity regarding these interpretations, then we should be able to agree on more, and so I would like for us to explore how much we agree on before we begin to diverge. Did you agree with me regarding the Scriptures I have posted above summarizing the doctrinal points implicit in ACTS 16:31, 2CR 4:5 & CL 2:6? Are there any more Scriptures you wonder if we agree on?
I have to point out that "justness" is not the same thing as "righteousness", for even a corrupt and wicked judge can occasionally dispense justice; Jesus told a parable to this effect.
The statement, "God is just" means that when He exercises judgment, it is always without partiality for any reason, and that He takes into account all relevant evidence. As an aside, He's also not bound by human legalese like a statute of limitations.
One of the key lessons (for me) from my seminary training was a brief exercise where we read a passage and then summarized what it said about God. Most of the students (myself included) extrapolated from the text. The professor gently corrected us, explaining that the text says exactly what it says and no more. So in our studies, we do well to resist the temptation to claim the text says more (or different) than it actually does.
Dino,
I have to point out that even Satan can appear as an angel of justness and righteousness. A broken clock that is right twice a day is just lucky.
Re God's just judgments, they could also be termed right judgments.
Re reading what a text says: Did the professor only quote Scripture and say no more?
What do key Scriptures say in your opinion? Do you agree with me regarding the Scriptures I have posted above summarizing the doctrinal points implicit in ACTS 16:31, 2CR 4:5 & CL 2:6? Are there any more Scriptures you would hope we agree on?
RA,
I trust you realize that the "things" Paul speaks of in 1CR 2:13-14 includes the Scripture that I am hoping we can agree on. I have suggested the need to agree on those I have posted above summarizing the doctrinal points implicit in ACTS 16:31, 2CR 4:5 & CL 2:6. Are there any more Scriptures you believe to be key or of primary importance that you would hope we agree on?
Hello,
I was taught and firmly believe that scripture is best understood "IN IT'S MOST NORMAL, NATURAL CUSTOMARY SENSE, EXCEPT FOR OBVIOUS PARABLES, ILLUSTRATIONS ETC..."
the original languages of Scripture was written in the language of common man of the day and was meant to be understood by all.
Clarence
I was taught and firmly believe that scripture is best understood "IN IT'S MOST NORMAL, NATURAL CUSTOMARY SENSE, EXCEPT FOR OBVIOUS PARABLES, ILLUSTRATIONS ETC..."
the original languages of Scripture was written in the language of common man of the day and was meant to be understood by all.
Clarence
1 Corinthians 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Magenta,
I take it you think that 1CR 2:13 and GL 5:1 are Scriptures that shape your faith, and I agree with you, so we have unity so far, and my goal on this thread is to see how far our unanimity will go before we disagree regarding an interpretation of Scripture.
Do you agree with my summary of the Scriptural points implicit in ACTS 16:31, 2CR 4:5 & CL 2:6? Are there any more Scriptures you would hope we agree on?
SW,
I agree with what you say, and I would like to know if you agree with the quest of this thread and with what I have posted above summarizing the doctrinal points implicit in ACTS 16:31, 2CR 4:5 & CL 2:6? Are there any more Scriptures that you believe to be key and would hope we agree on?
Siblings,
I might go ahead and point out that the Scriptures I view as key and crucial for us to agree about the interpretation are about GRFS or the kerygma (proclamation of the Gospel). I refer to teachings that are secondary or subsequent to learning GRFS by another Greek word, didache, which means teaching. The didache may be very important and requisite for becoming spiritually mature, but it is not most important or necessary to know/believe/agree on in order to be saved or have essential spiritual unity, but rather doctrinal unity as helpful to our oneness.
The distinction between kerygma/saving faith/doctrine and didache/working faith/"solid food" was made by Jesus when He commissioned His original twelve disciples minus Judas (MT 28:19-20, cf. HB 5:12-14). This “Great Commission” speaks of both types of information. The kerygma is indicated by verse 19, in which Jesus says, “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations”. A Christian disciple is a learner or one who believes the good news about God’s offer of eternal life to all who accept Jesus as Christ, the Lord incarnate.
The didache is implicit in verse 20, in which Jesus continues by saying “teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.” This speaks of the information a disciple needs to know and believe after conversion in order to grow in Christ-likeness regarding how to live the law of love. It is the “all truth” that is taught by the Spirit referred to in John 16:13 (and the "solid food" in HB 5:12f.). Again, it is very important but not necessary for salvation. Witness the thief on the cross in Luke 23:39-43, who had no opportunity to learn the didache after his conversion; although, like Paul (according to Acts 22:3) and most adults, some didachaic truth is learned prior to knowing the kerygma.
I might go ahead and point out that the Scriptures I view as key and crucial for us to agree about the interpretation are about GRFS or the kerygma (proclamation of the Gospel). I refer to teachings that are secondary or subsequent to learning GRFS by another Greek word, didache, which means teaching. The didache may be very important and requisite for becoming spiritually mature, but it is not most important or necessary to know/believe/agree on in order to be saved or have essential spiritual unity, but rather doctrinal unity as helpful to our oneness.
The distinction between kerygma/saving faith/doctrine and didache/working faith/"solid food" was made by Jesus when He commissioned His original twelve disciples minus Judas (MT 28:19-20, cf. HB 5:12-14). This “Great Commission” speaks of both types of information. The kerygma is indicated by verse 19, in which Jesus says, “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations”. A Christian disciple is a learner or one who believes the good news about God’s offer of eternal life to all who accept Jesus as Christ, the Lord incarnate.
The didache is implicit in verse 20, in which Jesus continues by saying “teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.” This speaks of the information a disciple needs to know and believe after conversion in order to grow in Christ-likeness regarding how to live the law of love. It is the “all truth” that is taught by the Spirit referred to in John 16:13 (and the "solid food" in HB 5:12f.). Again, it is very important but not necessary for salvation. Witness the thief on the cross in Luke 23:39-43, who had no opportunity to learn the didache after his conversion; although, like Paul (according to Acts 22:3) and most adults, some didachaic truth is learned prior to knowing the kerygma.
Luke 21:14-15
Settle this within self, it is God who has done it all for you to be new in love and mercy to us all, To all as called. Learn to listen to God over self and everyone else in their opinions, God knows the whole truth in his risen Son for each of us to be new in love and mercy to be given us to stand in 1Cor 13:4-7 I need that, and am given this as the gift from God in love to us all,
also to see, this truth so deep that no flesh nature can ever fathom unless one is willing for God to lead them to see it, will be born again from Father's view to us and then be taught new as long as one does not give up on belief.
I see to not add or take away from truth Son is risen for us by God to us
1Cor 15. If Messiah-Jesus is not risen, then I am still dead in my sins, and my Faith is useless if the dead do not rise.
Christ is risen and that is where the new life for each person resides, either in and through them or not yet, unless they choose consciously to not believe God, will be in the Sin of death, "Unbelief" as in the first Adam did, not the second Adam. I do suspect Adam the first did repent, yet that is between God and the first Adam, not me and others ever.
God loves us all, otherwise that cross would not have ever taken place in the first place, thanks
As we each grow in the risen Son being shown by God, the Holy Spirit
HB,
Thanks for another good post with which I agree so again I ask whether you agree with what I have posted so we have unity thus far in answer to the prayer of Jesus?
I'll just cut to the chase instead of giving an elaborate explanation. 2 Timothy 3:14 says that when we know that our learning and assurance comes from the God who lives in our hearts, we can stand in unwavering confidence in the things He has taught us and has assured us of. And as you have indicated, God teaches us about things we find in Scripture and about other things.
My experience is that it is easy to be persuaded to adopt a false view of Scripture. And the only way to avoid it is to trust the Lord as He leads us into the proper understanding.
NLIC, I agree that we should have a true view or interpretation of Scripture, which teaches in places such as 2TM 3:14 that God leads us to a better understanding as we learn more Scripture, not only for our own edification but also to witness by our agreement and unity as we share our insights with fellow Christians—which is what I hope we accomplish and do on this thread. LIC
Since no one has expressed disagreement regarding the significance of the Scriptures that were cited in the summary of beliefs that are implicit parts of saving faith/the kerygma, I hope this means we essentially agree and are ready to discuss didachaic details in a spirit of unity, but how shall we proceed? Two Scriptural topics occur to me, but feel free to suggest one that comes to your mind.
1. The spiritual union between believers and Christ is comparable to marriage (EPH 5:23-32), and just as a husband and wife need to continue their commitment until they part at death, Christians also need to retain saving faith (LK 9:23, 2CR 4:16) as they grow spiritually, learning how to become more like Christ or achieve His fullness. Then they will neither take God’s grace for granted nor repent of their decision to serve Him as Lord. In other words, perseverance is an implicit and integral part of faith; Christians need to persevere in their acceptance of the kerygma and to keep on learning the didache until the day they die (MT 10:22, 2THS 1:3-5, 2PT 1:5-8). However, this understanding leads us into a discussion of election and apostasy, which are already being argued on other threads. Thus, I think there is no need to include it here unless y'all want to discuss interpretations of relevant Scriptures calmly.
2. At the moment of repentance/acceptance, God’s Holy Spirit enters believers' spiritual hearts (RV 3:20), uniting them with God as heavenly Father (RM 8:9) and identifying them with Christ’s worldwide/catholic body or church (CL 1:18). This manifold event is called spiritual birth or baptism (1CR 12:13). We can infer that this dynamic occurs also for pre-NT believers, because there is no salvation outside of Christ’s ekklesia or church (ACTS 4:12). Partial knowledge of God’s Word will limit ability to cooperate with Him, so there is a need for evangelism or learning the full Gospel (MT 28:18-20, cf. ACTS 18:24-26) as well as for lifelong discipleship or spiritual training (2TM 3:16-17). Would y'all be interested in exploring our agreement regarding elements in this paragraph?
1. The spiritual union between believers and Christ is comparable to marriage (EPH 5:23-32), and just as a husband and wife need to continue their commitment until they part at death, Christians also need to retain saving faith (LK 9:23, 2CR 4:16) as they grow spiritually, learning how to become more like Christ or achieve His fullness. Then they will neither take God’s grace for granted nor repent of their decision to serve Him as Lord. In other words, perseverance is an implicit and integral part of faith; Christians need to persevere in their acceptance of the kerygma and to keep on learning the didache until the day they die (MT 10:22, 2THS 1:3-5, 2PT 1:5-8). However, this understanding leads us into a discussion of election and apostasy, which are already being argued on other threads. Thus, I think there is no need to include it here unless y'all want to discuss interpretations of relevant Scriptures calmly.
2. At the moment of repentance/acceptance, God’s Holy Spirit enters believers' spiritual hearts (RV 3:20), uniting them with God as heavenly Father (RM 8:9) and identifying them with Christ’s worldwide/catholic body or church (CL 1:18). This manifold event is called spiritual birth or baptism (1CR 12:13). We can infer that this dynamic occurs also for pre-NT believers, because there is no salvation outside of Christ’s ekklesia or church (ACTS 4:12). Partial knowledge of God’s Word will limit ability to cooperate with Him, so there is a need for evangelism or learning the full Gospel (MT 28:18-20, cf. ACTS 18:24-26) as well as for lifelong discipleship or spiritual training (2TM 3:16-17). Would y'all be interested in exploring our agreement regarding elements in this paragraph?
In the Old Testament , God provides His people with a clear mandate to test what they hear and read, ensuring that it aligns with His truth and not with deception. This principle is not only important for maintaining the integrity of faith but also for discerning the voice of God in a world full of false teachings. Testing Scripture and prophets is a vital practice that maintains the purity of God’s Word and affirms His truth.
The Importance of Testing in the Bible
God, in His wisdom, commands His people to test and examine what they hear and believe. This is not just about testing the accuracy of prophecy, but also ensuring that any teaching aligns with His established truth, which He has already revealed in the Scriptures. This calls for discernment, wisdom, and a heart committed to the truth.
Testing Prophets
In Deuteronomy 18:20-22, God gives a clear guideline on how to discern whether a prophet is genuinely speaking on His behalf or is a false prophet:
But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die. And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?’—when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him." (Deuteronomy 18:20-22, NKJV)
In this passage, the test for a true prophet is whether their prophecies come to pass. If a prophet speaks words that do not come to pass, they are not speaking from God, and the people are not to fear them or follow their message.
The Role of the Law and Scriptures in Testing
The Old Testament stresses that all teachings must be measured against the law and the Word of God.
"You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you." (Deuteronomy 4:2, NKJV) In the case of any prophet or teacher, if their message contradicts the Scriptures already revealed, they should not be followed.
Deuteronomy 13:1-3 warns against false prophets who may perform signs and wonders but still lead people away from the commandments of God:
If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods'—which you have not known—and let us serve them, you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul." (Deuteronomy 13:1-3, NKJV)
This passage emphasizes that even miraculous signs cannot be the final test of truth. The message must align with God’s Word. The test of loyalty to God’s commandments is paramount. Any prophet who leads you to worship other gods is false, regardless of whether their predictions come true.
Testing Scripture: The Integrity of God's Word
The Bible is the foundation for truth, and the Old Testament shows its importance as a standard for all doctrine and teaching. This is why it is so critical that we test all teachings, whether from prophets or others, by the Scriptures themselves.
The psalmist in Psalm 119:160 writes:
"The entirety of Your word is truth, and every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever." (Psalm 119:160, NKJV)
This verse reminds us that God's Word is entirely truthful and that it will endure forever. No prophecy or teaching can contradict or invalidate the written Word of God. The truth of the Scriptures stands as the ultimate test for what is authentic and righteous.
The Bereans: A Model for Testing
In the New Testament, the Bereans are commended for their willingness to test even the teachings of the apostle Paul. In Acts 17:11, we read:
These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so." (Acts 17:11, NKJV)
The Bereans set an example for us in how to test teachings. They did not blindly accept what they heard but diligently searched the Scriptures to confirm the truth of the message. This was their standard: God's Word, not the words of men. By comparing everything they heard to the Scriptures, they ensured that they were not deceived.
The Role of Witnessing in Testing
The concept of witnessing in the Bible is closely related to the idea of testing truth. Witnessing provides evidence that affirms or disproves the truth of a message. Jesus Himself speaks of the importance of multiple witnesses to verify truth. In John 8:17-18, He says:
"It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me." (John 8:17-18, NKJV)
Jesus uses the principle of multiple witnesses to affirm His own divine authority. In the same way, when we test prophecies, teachings, or Scripture, it is beneficial to have multiple, credible witnesses—be they the teachings of the apostles, the testimony of the saints, or the evidence of Scripture itself. The truth of God’s Word is established not by one isolated testimony but by a consistent witness throughout the Scriptures.
The Necessity of Discernment
Discernment is a spiritual gift that allows believers to test and judge between truth and error. It is important to cultivate this gift by prayerfully studying Scripture and seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit. In 1 John 4:1, the apostle John exhorts believers to exercise discernment:
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1, NKJV)
John acknowledges the presence of false prophets in the world and calls on believers to test them. This test is not just based on signs and wonders but on the content of their message and whether it aligns with the truth of God’s Word.
The Biblical Mandate to Test
The Old Testament provides a clear foundation for testing prophecies and teachings. A prophet’s words must come to pass, and their message must align with the commandments of God. The integrity of God’s Word stands as the final test. Scripture is truth, and any teaching that deviates from it must be rejected.
As believers, we are called Search the Scriptures diligently to confirm the truth of what we hear. Witnesses, multiple testimonies, and discernment are tools we can use to test the truth. In a world full of voices, where everyone have his own opinion and personal interpretation, only God’s Word provides the firm foundation on which we can stand.
We should take these commands seriously, not only in matters of prophecy but in all things related to our faith, ensuring that we are always walking in the truth of God’s Word.
Blessings.
Vassal,
Thanks for that complete elaboration of 1THS 5:21, "Test everything. Hold on to the good", which is what I cite as one of my guiding Scriptures.
I trust we all agree that testing or discernment is an important aspect of interpreting GW, so now we invite someone else to share their favorite Scriptural teaching related to our quest for spritual and doctrinal unity.
I know... so many preachers will have to rethink their entire approach!
Seriously, from my experience, the Church needs more basic exposition and less extrapolation. More application, less eisegesis.
I know... so many preachers will have to rethink their entire approach!
Seriously, from my experience, the Church needs more basic exposition and less extrapolation. More application, less eisegesis.
Dino,
IOW, we need better interpretation and more unity, which is our quest, but I think you missed my reply to you in which I noted that even Satan can appear as an angel of justness and righteousness. A broken clock that is right twice a day is just lucky.
I also said that God's just judgments could also be termed right judgments, and regarding reading what a text says: Did the professor only quote Scripture and say no more?
What do key Scriptures say in your opinion? Do you agree with me regarding the Scriptures I have posted above summarizing the doctrinal points implicit in ACTS 16:31, 2CR 4:5 & CL 2:6? Are there any more Scriptures you would hope we agree on?
Well... I hope we agree on all the Scriptures.
I'm not sure I agree that Satan can appear as an angel of justness and righteousness. The Scripture says he can appear as "an angel of light".
The lesson in that class was that we need to be cautious not to add to what Scripture says or attempt to have it say something other than what it says. Just take the text at face value, but don't claim that it says something it doesn't explicitly state. Application is a different issue, and that's where the work of the preacher comes in.
Well... I hope we agree on all the Scriptures.
I'm not sure I agree that Satan can appear as an angel of justness and righteousness. The Scripture says he can appear as "an angel of light".
The lesson in that class was that we need to be cautious not to add to what Scripture says or attempt to have it say something other than what it says. Just take the text at face value, but don't claim that it says something it doesn't explicitly state. Application is a different issue, and that's where the work of the preacher comes in.
Me too, but we don't, so our quest for unity involves finding out how much Scripture we do agree on before we diverge.
Both truth and holiness/righteousness/goodness are included in the manifestation of divine light or glory (LK 2:9, 1CHR 16:24-34).
The apostle Paul had Scripture say something other than what it explicitly said, such as in GL 4:22-26 where he explains the story of Sarah and Hagar figuratively, so I guess he would have flunked that class.
Both interpretation and application may issue in disagreement, which is where our work to achieve unity comes in, so I hope this sidebar discussion will further that goal.
Over...