Understanding God’s election

[Everlasting-Grace]

Because your participation negates grace; it becomes conditioned on your response.

One more time

Eph 2: 8
8 For by grace you have been saved

Prety self explanitory. I have been saved solely by the grace of God

through faith,

But God will not force it on me. It is recieved through faith.


and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Again, prety self explanatory. The grace that saved me through me trusting him, is not of myself. and is not of works..

So why do you keep insisting that me recieving his grace gift negates grace? It is how we recieve grace.

the only other option is to reject it.

How do you reject grace?

1. Trying to work for it (not of works)
2. Outright rejection of it completely (Love your sin)
3. Denying you even need it (like the jews who denied Christ who came to save them)
and I am sure I can come up0 with other ways.

 

[ocean]

You see......the ONLY way to correctly interpret passages is to map them against THE ENITRE BIBLE.
Everything. And 10 HOURS is only a cursory treatment.

 

[Cameron143]

again, Who did the High priest make atonement for. All the people under the law. or just a few elect people under the law.

Your text appeared to say that it was the priest who paid the penalty. I accept your follow-up explanation.

 

[Cameron143]

One more time

Eph 2: 8
8 For by grace you have been saved

Prety self explanitory. I have been saved solely by the grace of God

through faith,

But God will not force it on me. It is recieved through faith.


and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Again, prety self explanatory. The grace that saved me through me trusting him, is not of myself. and is not of works..

So why do you keep insisting that me recieving his grace gift negates grace? It is how we recieve grace.

the only other option is to reject it.

How do you reject grace?

1. Trying to work for it (not of works)
2. Outright rejection of it completely (Love your sin)
3. Denying you even need it (like the jews who denied Christ who came to save them)
and I am sure I can come up0 with other ways.

We view grace differently.

 

[ocean]

If God accepted Jesus payment for sin, why is anyone under the penalty of sin?

what do you mean if? are you sure it is God that has a problem with the perfect sacrifice of His Son?

obviously, at least to those who correctly interpret scripture, those without Christ, who have not had their sins forgiven through acceptance of Jesus and His work (never ours) are still without salvation

 

[Cameron143]

what do you mean if? are you sure it is God that has a problem with the perfect sacrifice of His Son?

obviously, at least to those who correctly interpret scripture, those without Christ, who have not had their sins forgiven through acceptance of Jesus and His work (never ours) are still without salvation

But why aren't their sins forgiven them if they are paid for, and the Father accepted the payment for their sins?

 

[Genez]

You are just a contrary person. How does making a point about one aspect of Jesus ministry equate to that being the totality of all an individual believes concerning a topic?
In gaining knowledge, it is also beneficial to gain wisdom as well.
Grace and peace.

You forgot to stick out your tongue before signing off.

 

[Cameron143]

You forgot to stick out your tongue before signing off.

I'm not the one with bitterness in my heart. I wish you every good and perfect gift.

 

[Genez]

If God accepted Jesus payment for sin, why is anyone under the penalty of sin?

Where does it say that we are under the penalty of sin?

Jesus bore our penalty so we can be made free to be accepted by God.
He was forsaken on the Cross for what we should have been forsaken for.

If Jesus did not bear the penalty, no one could be free to be saved, only forsaken by God.

 

[Genez]

I'm not the one with bitterness in my heart. I wish you every good and perfect gift.

Try as you may. I am just doing my called job.
No bitterness whatsoever in my heart.

So, be careful how you judge.
And, maybe, try to learn something you did not know is true.

 

[Cameron143]

Where does it say that we are under the penalty of sin?

Jesus bore our penalty so we can be made free to be accepted by God.
He was forsaken on the Cross for what we should have been forsaken for.

If Jesus did not bear the penalty, no one could be free to be saved, only forsaken by God.

I didn't say we were. That is being posited by other posters.
Perhaps you should be sharing with them.

 

[Cameron143]

Try as you may. I am just doing my called job.
No bitterness whatsoever in my heart.

So, be careful how you judge.
And, maybe, try to learn something you did not know is true.

No you aren't. You have ascribed to me things I haven't said. You are simply bearing false witness.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

We view grace differently.

Can you respond to what Paul said in ephesians?

1. How we are saved by Grace THROUGH FAITH
2. How faith is not works. by which we can boast that we saved ourselves?

I interpret grace to mean unmerited favor. If I am drowning and someone comes to rescue me, and I ALLOW them to rescue me because I trust them, and in doing so. I stopped trying to save myself or denying i needed saved.

I can not boast I saved myself. nor can I claim I participated in my salvation. i did nothing, I just let the rescuer do his or her job.

its no different than with Christ. I did not participate in my salvation. I just stopped working and let him save me because I trusted him.

 

[PaulThomson]

But why aren't their sins forgiven them if they are paid for, and the Father accepted the payment for their sins?

The Father judges no one but has given all judgement to the Son.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father.

Why? Because the Son suffered abandonment as the Father's expression of His wrath against all mankind's sins. So the Father no longer judges anyone. The atonement worked toward the Father for everyone. Now Jesus gets to set the bar for communion with God. That bar is faith in (Pistis) and faithfulness toward (pistis) the Son.

"If you are denying me, I will deny you."

Matt. 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
2 Tim. 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

 

[MeowFlower]

I think this discussion is proving word by word if rebirth in Christ so to become a new creation,person so that the old is done away, is actual. Or not.

Jesus is God,The Word made flesh and who dwelt among us.

 

[Iconoclast]

Not sure how God saves everyone without purposing to do so.
The OT except in a few places and in some of the prophets did not understand that God loves and wants to save all who satisfy GRFS, not only the Jews.
Not sure what words you think are added to Scripture by saying that the Bible doesn't claim God predestines the non-elect to hell, but those who deny that God provides all the opportunity to be saved imply such. Jesus suggests that few are chosen or elect.
Not sure what paragraph 3 v. 7-9 refers to, but if it is to the passages following, you added words.
1TM 5:21 refers to elect angels, presumably because they had the opportunity to accept Christ
MT 25:34 refers to those who are blessed, presumably because they availed themselves of the same grace.
EPH 1:5-6 refers to God's will, which is to cooperate with the plan of salvation He predestined: to elect those who are in Christ.
RM 9:22-23 says God could choose to condemn people who deserve wrath, but His love offers them salvation in Christ.

I appreciate your offer, and that is what we all should do.
Next?

Hello GWH,

It is not true that all men are going to be saved.
It is not true that all men even hear the name of Jesus.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

For example; when Jesus was dying on the cross there were multitudes dying in South America, India, China, Europe, who never heard of Jesus or the gospel of the Kingdom.

 

[Cameron143]

Can you respond to what Paul said in ephesians?

1. How we are saved by Grace THROUGH FAITH
2. How faith is not works. by which we can boast that we saved ourselves?

I interpret grace to mean unmerited favor. If I am drowning and someone comes to rescue me, and I ALLOW them to rescue me because I trust them, and in doing so. I stopped trying to save myself or denying i needed saved.

I can not boast I saved myself. nor can I claim I participated in my salvation. i did nothing, I just let the rescuer do his or her job.

its no different than with Christ. I did not participate in my salvation. I just stopped working and let him save me because I trusted him.

I actually spent a couple of posts earlier explaining this when I spoke concerning Matthew 16. And the point I was making about revelation is that this revelation is what is responsible for our faith in Christ. Just as Peter received revelation concerning who Jesus is, so too does an individual God is bringing to faith. In revealing Christ as Savior. To really understand Christ as Savior, one must understand that they are sinful, that their sin has separated them from God, and that Christ has made a way for sinners to be redeemed. All this and more is engendered in the revelation that God brings. Simultaneously, the Holy Spirit is doing a convicting work inside the individual, convincing the individual that the things God is revealing are indeed true of them.
Revelation and conviction are what produce this newfound faith in Christ. It's not that people don't believe or have the capacity for faith. They do. But faith in Christ comes supernaturally to an individual due directly to the revelation and conviction of God.

And I believe this is where we differ. You believe that a person hears a message and either believes it or rejects it. The choice is theirs. And in one sense this is true. But in another sense, what happens is entirely new because the faith is produced by revelation that was previously unknown. So I guess I don't believe an individual is making a choice based on the addition of more information, but that such revelation involves more than mere change of mind, but also involves a change in heart and will.

 

[Cameron143]

The Father judges no one but has given all judgement to the Son.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father.

Why? Because the Son suffered abandonment as the Father's expression of His wrath against all mankind's sins. So the Father no longer judges anyone. The atonement worked toward the Father for everyone. Now Jesus gets to set the bar for communion with God. That bar is faith in (Pistis) and faithfulness toward (pistis) the Son.

"If you are denying me, I will deny you."

Matt. 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
2 Tim. 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

The bar has always faith as far as salvation is concerned. Abraham believed God.

 

[GWH]

Hello GWH,

It is not true that all men are going to be saved.
It is not true that all men even hear the name of Jesus.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

For example; when Jesus was dying on the cross there were multitudes dying in South America, India, China, Europe, who never heard of Jesus or the gospel of the Kingdom.

Exactly, so on what basis would a God who loved them judge them?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

And I believe this is where we differ. You believe that a person hears a message and either believes it or rejects it.

If you think this you have not listened to a word I have said, I do not think this, I think it is much deeper than this, and have explained this numerous time’
’
[quote[The choice is theirs. [/quote]
In the end it is,

And in one sense this is true. But in another sense, what happens is entirely new because the faith is produced by revelation that was previously unknown. So I guess I don't believe an individual is making a choice based on the addition of more information, but that such revelation involves more than mere change of mind, but also involves a change in heart and will.

This is called repentance. And it is cause because God opens their mind

again, I do not have to be born again to believe.. God acts, I chose how to react to God