What Changed?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Nov 1, 2024
1,211
384
83
The unregenerate man cares nothing about the will of God. He is at enmity with God. He cares only for himself. Everything he does, regardless of how outwardly noble, is done for his own self-interest.
Then how do unregenerate people do things from the heart that are God's will like what Christ said the Samaritan did? There is no law against such things, which means it's not sin, which is what God wills.
 
Nov 1, 2024
1,211
384
83
The unregenerate man cares nothing about the will of God. He is at enmity with God. He cares only for himself. Everything he does, regardless of how outwardly noble, is done for his own self-interest.
Why then do some unregenerate people hunger and thirst for righteousness? When Christ said this no one had been regenerated.

Blessed are the ones hungering and thirsting for righteousness, for they shall be filled. Matthew 5:6
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
20,080
6,883
113
62
Then how do unregenerate people do things from the heart that are God's will like what Christ said the Samaritan did? There is no law against such things, which means it's not sin, which is what God wills.
Already explained this. Outward conformity is not always inward reality. Proper inward reality is necessary to obedience as well. Otherwise, why would Jesus chastise the Pharisees who were outwardly in conformity?
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
20,080
6,883
113
62
Why then do some unregenerate people hunger and thirst for righteousness? When Christ said this no one had been regenerated.

Blessed are the ones hungering and thirsting for righteousness, for they shall be filled. Matthew 5:6
This is not true. People are regenerated in salvation. OT saints were saved the same as today.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
20,080
6,883
113
62
You're just flip flopping around to avoid being pinned down. You said in post 1,068 that being regenerated means being born from above. Are you saying that people before Pentecost were born from above?
It's an important question. And yes, people were regenerated and born from above before Pentecost. It's impossible to have an intimate relationship with God otherwise.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,059
415
83
Maybe you need to repent of your self-assuredness and playing fast and loose with the word of God
I repented a long time ago when I found out that my own righteousness was as "filthy rags (literally a woman's menstrual rag!), cf. Isa 64:6). When I stand before my Creator and Redeemer, I know whose righteousness I will plead. And it won't be my own!

You say you are not convinced? Well, what about Abraham -- the [spiritual] father of all those who believe? Was he not justified by faith when God reckoned/counted/credited/imputed his own righteousness to the patriarch? Read the entire chapter of Romans 4 carefully.

Also, check out this link to blbclassic.org that defines the Gr. term logizomai (Strong's 3409).

https://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G3049&t=KJV&page=2
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,059
415
83
It is completely due to God's mercy, revealed in Christ Jesus when He set me free from shame and guilt for sins, that I am God's child with bold access into communion with Him. But He did not impute Jesus' righteous conduct to me to achieve that.

He place my sins on Christ, who took them away from me to purify my vessel, and who put His Holy Spirit in me to impart divine power and love that enanles me to will and do what pleases Him, and produces by faith ongoing victory over temptations to sin that I would otherwise tend to succumb to in the weakness of my flesh, despite the willingness of my spirit.
Oh...So God imputed your sins unto Christ, but not Chris's righteousness unto you? But you need to be JUSTIFIED like Abraham was (see Romans 4). Being indwelt by the Holy Spirit is NOT sufficient for your salvation because all Christians are still sinners. No one lives in this life a perfect holy life. This is why you NEED to be justified by God with Christ's righteousness since he did for the elect what even the elect cannot do in this life. You need to be declared RIGHTEOUS by God. And if you insist that you don't need Christ's righteousness imputed to you, you will surely die in your sins.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,059
415
83
Why then do some unregenerate people hunger and thirst for righteousness? When Christ said this no one had been regenerated.

Blessed are the ones hungering and thirsting for righteousness, for they shall be filled. Matthew 5:6
The passage above doesn't teach that "some unregenerate people hunger and thirst...". You read a ton of your own personal presuppositions into bible passages. The unregenerate Hate God, hate his Christ, hate godly wisdom, hate godly knowledge. Anyone who hungers and thirsts for righteousness is either a born again child of God OR has been regenerated by bring effectually drawn by God to Christ for the day of his new birth.
 
Nov 1, 2024
1,211
384
83
The passage above doesn't teach that "some unregenerate people hunger and thirst...". You read a ton of your own personal presuppositions into bible passages. The unregenerate Hate God, hate his Christ, hate godly wisdom, hate godly knowledge. Anyone who hungers and thirsts for righteousness is either a born again child of God OR has been regenerated by bring effectually drawn by God to Christ for the day of his new birth.
I hungered and thirsted for righteousness well before I believed in Christ. I even mocked Christians back then. So your claim that all unregenerate people hate righteousness and godliness is simply ignorant and not based on experience like I've had.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,059
415
83
I hungered and thirsted for righteousness well before I believed in Christ. I even mocked Christians back then. So your claim that all unregenerate people hate righteousness and godliness is simply ignorant and not based on experience like I've had.
My faith isn't grounded in people's personal, subjective, unverifiable experiences. The Word of God is TRUTH, not our, personal subjective experiences. Moreover, how do you know that God wasn't already at work in your soul? You could have been in a state of regeneration already on your way to your new birth in Christ.

Also, hell will be loaded with "virtuous, good, religious" people who also "hungered and thirsted". The difference between them and true Christians is that the former believe they can achieve righteousness on their own -- that they can even improve to the extent of reaching perfection, in some cases.

Also, I wrote a series of posts several months ago that argued that the unregenerate want nothing to do with God, his Son, his salvation, his truth, with biblical knowledge, wisdom, understanding, etc. I suspect you don't want to know the truth but here are the post numbers anyway: 9667, 9668, 9669, 9891 all of which were posted on Atonement thread. The unregenerate have NO HEART for God or his Truth.
 

Lamar

Active member
May 21, 2023
955
143
43
Yes, mankind "became" corrupt when Adam sinned (see Rom 5:12ff.). Man is neither inherently good or inherently righteous.
We are not born cursed by God with a guilty or corrupt nature and this is certainly what you are implying.


James 1:14-15
New American Standard Bible


But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it has run its course, brings forth death.

We are not enticed by the lust of Adam or Eve but "by our own lust".
 

Lamar

Active member
May 21, 2023
955
143
43
The unregenerate have NO HEART for God or his Truth.
Jeremiah 17:10
New International Version

10 “I the Lord search the heart
and examine the mind,
to reward each person according to their conduct,
according to what their deeds deserve.”

There is no reason to "search" the heart if all are born corrupt.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,059
415
83
We are not born cursed by God with a guilty or corrupt nature and this is certainly what you are implying.


James 1:14-15
New American Standard Bible


But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it has run its course, brings forth death.

We are not enticed by the lust of Adam or Eve but "by our own lust".
Yes, just LIKE Adam was enticed by his own lust. In other words, like father, like son -- each and everyone us. We inherited his sin nature, which is why the sons of men are called evil in the bible! Moreover, because Adam was appointed by God to be mankind's Federal Head, his sin is imputed to us -- See Rom 4, 5 and 1Cor 15.

While God did not "curse" us with a "corrupt" nature, he certainly ordained and designed mankind to be negatively impacted by sin in man's entirety -- body, soul, spirit, mind, heart, conscience, emotions, etc., etc. Look at sin as a disease that inflicts great damage to our entire being. Adam was physiologically impacted, and he passed those negative traits unto all his posterity, most likely through his sperm which accounts for the highly unusual "seed" language in Gen 3:15 and the necessity of the virgin birth for Jesus.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
3,059
415
83
Jeremiah 17:10
New International Version

10 “I the Lord search the heart
and examine the mind,
to reward each person according to their conduct,
according to what their deeds deserve.”

There is no reason to "search" the heart if all are born corrupt.
But God searches all hearts -- the righteous and wicked alike. What do you think God will be doing on Judgment Day when he judges both the righteous and the wicked?
 

Lamar

Active member
May 21, 2023
955
143
43
Someone who isn't born from above.
In other words, those of the self-proclaimed chosen few.

Wait...let me guess...you know you are in the Book of Life. Am I right?

Such assertions are baseless.