Another look at John 10.

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B

Beckworth

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The context surrounding a verse is so important. Verses are not little “islands”. Sitting all by themselves in a “sea” of words. The context of a passage is necessary to get a true understanding of the passage.

In John 10, Jesus is using an analogy of a shepherd and his sheep. Obviously, this analogy is about Jesus and His followers. His “sheep” follow him because they “know” Him. We understand these “sheep” are the “saved.” Jesus says no one, not “thieves, or robbers” in verses 1, 8, and 10. And not “strangers” in verse 5, and not “hirelings in verses 12 and 13. Can steal or take the sheep away from Him. Verse 29. This illustrates the security of the believer who follows the “good shepherd”, Christ. These verse are used as “proof” that a saved person can’t lose his salvation. But that isn’t what this passage is portraying. This IS about “sheep” getting STOLEN, not LEAVING! That is not the same thing. It is true that when a saved person is IN THE FOLD OF Christ, no one can STEAL them away. However, this story DOES NOT address the issue of a saved person LEAVING the fold of Christ; thus scripture only says they can’t be taken away by another person or some OUTSIDE force.

Here is another story told by Jesus that DOES teach the TRUTH about “can a saved person lose his salvation.” It’s in Luke 15:4-7. Again we are talking about “sheep” and the good shepherd. Christ.
“What man of you, having 100 sheep IF HE LOSES ONE OF THEM does not leave the 99 and go after THE ONE WHO IS LOST? SO Jesus CAN LOSE A SHEEP after all!! Did some “stranger” steal this sheep? NO! This speep LEFT OF HIS OWN FREE WILL. HE left the fold of Christ and HE WAS LOST—not just physically in this story—HE WAS LOST SPIRITUALLY! I know this because in verse 7 JESUS calls him A “SINNER WHO REPENTS” and identifies him as the one who was lost from the 99 others. This is proof that a child of God can leave God and be lost.
John 10 is not even talking about the same thing —much less “proof” that a saved person can’t leave Christ and be lost.
 
2ndTimeIsTheCharm

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

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Beckworth said:
The context surrounding a verse is so important. Verses are not little “islands”. Sitting all by themselves in a “sea” of words. The context of a passage is necessary to get a true understanding of the passage.

In John 10, Jesus is using an analogy of a shepherd and his sheep. Obviously, this analogy is about Jesus and His followers. His “sheep” follow him because they “know” Him. We understand these “sheep” are the “saved.” Jesus says no one, not “thieves, or robbers” in verses 1, 8, and 10. And not “strangers” in verse 5, and not “hirelings in verses 12 and 13. Can steal or take the sheep away from Him. Verse 29. This illustrates the security of the believer who follows the “good shepherd”, Christ. These verse are used as “proof” that a saved person can’t lose his salvation. But that isn’t what this passage is portraying. This IS about “sheep” getting STOLEN, not LEAVING! That is not the same thing. It is true that when a saved person is IN THE FOLD OF Christ, no one can STEAL them away. However, this story DOES NOT address the issue of a saved person LEAVING the fold of Christ; thus scripture only says they can’t be taken away by another person or some OUTSIDE force.

Here is another story told by Jesus that DOES teach the TRUTH about “can a saved person lose his salvation.” It’s in Luke 15:4-7. Again we are talking about “sheep” and the good shepherd. Christ.
“What man of you, having 100 sheep IF HE LOSES ONE OF THEM does not leave the 99 and go after THE ONE WHO IS LOST? SO Jesus CAN LOSE A SHEEP after all!! Did some “stranger” steal this sheep? NO! This speep LEFT OF HIS OWN FREE WILL. HE left the fold of Christ and HE WAS LOST—not just physically in this story—HE WAS LOST SPIRITUALLY! I know this because in verse 7 JESUS calls him A “SINNER WHO REPENTS” and identifies him as the one who was lost from the 99 others. This is proof that a child of God can leave God and be lost.
John 10 is not even talking about the same thing —much less “proof” that a saved person can’t leave Christ and be lost.
Click to expand...

I agree. External forces can't steal us away from God. And He doesn't take our free will away from us when we get saved. This gives us the freedom to stay with Him or leave Him as He doesn't want programmed robots as His disciples. What He wants are people who freely choose Him in every situation, every decision.

[Posted to keep this thread afloat.]


🥙
 
C

ChristRoseFromTheDead

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If a Christian can't be lost, why did Christ say he would tell many who professed him, "Depart from me, you workers of iniquity". Or Paul say that if we deny him he will deny us. Denial goes beyond verbal disavowment into the works we do that reveal who we actually follow:

Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Titus 1:15-16
 
G

GWH

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I also agree, and now it seems so obvious, but as someone raised in a church/denomination that taught OSAS I was rather ignorant until I read the Bible with an open mind for myself and found the passages we have discussed on other threads, so then I guess I became a black sheep, so to speak.
 
p_rehbein

p_rehbein

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Beckworth said:
This IS about “sheep” getting STOLEN, not LEAVING! That is not the same thing. It is true that when a saved person is IN THE FOLD OF Christ, no one can STEAL them away. However, this story DOES NOT address the issue of a saved person LEAVING the fold of Christ; thus scripture only says they can’t be taken away by another person or some OUTSIDE force.
Click to expand...

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Cameron143

Cameron143

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Does this mean that all of you are keeping yourself saved?
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

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Beckworth said:
In John 10, Jesus is using an analogy of a shepherd and his sheep. [...]
These verse are used as “proof” that a saved person can’t lose his salvation. But that isn’t what this passage is portraying. This IS about “sheep” getting STOLEN, not LEAVING! That is not the same thing. It is true that when a saved person is IN THE FOLD OF Christ, no one can STEAL them away. However, this story DOES NOT address the issue of a saved person LEAVING the fold of Christ; thus scripture only says they can’t be taken away by another person or some OUTSIDE force.
Click to expand...
CONSIDER a few points (I must be brief, due to my present time constraints... I apologize... hope it will be clear enough):


--John 10:16 says, "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold [the Grk word here is-->] flock, and one shepherd." ; First point: "FOLD" is distinctly Jewish;



--in Matthew 10, it says this (where Jesus is speaking to His "12" disciples) -

Mat 10:5
These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

... Here, "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" are called "LOST" but not because they were "lost" out-from Jesus (in fact, Mt15:24 tells us that He Himself was "SENT TO" them, where it says, "Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.")--So in Matt10, He was starting out His earthly ministry and was sending His "12" disciples forth "TO the lost sheep of the house of Israel"... and to tell them a specific thing ("the kingdom of the heavens is at hand"... and to do certain things, like "heal the sick, cleanse the lepers..." etc etc);


--"the LOST sheep of the house of Israel" were "LOST" prior to Jesus Christ commencing His earthly ministry (and He Himself was "SENT TO" them [the Pharisees, etc, were particularly PERTURBED about this. LOL]);
so I believe it is somewhat "off" to call it "the FOLD of Christ" as you put it (when speaking of the "LOST" of THAT), see.
Again, "FOLD" is distinctly Jewish;
and the word "FOLD" is only used ONCE in John 10:16 (not twice; in the kjv, the 2nd of these two should actually be translated properly as "flock" not "fold")






Again, apologies for the haste with which I made this post... I must run! Trusting the Lord to take it where He will... :D

[bottom line: I don't believe your "take" on this passage is consistent with what the text itself is actually conveying :) ]
 
C

ChristRoseFromTheDead

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Cameron143 said:
Does this mean that all of you are keeping yourself saved?
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That's the goal. Justification (what people mistakenly call salvation) is a one-time thing; salvation is a life-long process of abiding in our sanctification.

Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. 1 Timothy 4:16
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
That's the goal. Justification (what people mistakenly call salvation) is a one-time thing; salvation is a life-long process of abiding in our sanctification.

Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. 1 Timothy 4:16
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So much for grace.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Grace isn't freedom to sin. Through grace comes the power to overcome the world and sin
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Who's power? You said you were responsible for keeping yourself saved. If someone helps, isn't that grace?
 
B

Beckworth

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GWH said:
I also agree, and now it seems so obvious, but as someone raised in a church/denomination that taught OSAS I was rather ignorant until I read the Bible with an open mind for myself and found the passages we have discussed on other threads, so then I guess I became a black sheep, so to speak.
Click to expand...
You are in good company. Jesus also was a black sheep with his peers. And you know you are on the “narrow” way because the “majority” are not traveling this road with us. 😄
 
B

Beckworth

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Cameron143 said:
Does this mean that all of you are keeping yourself saved?
Click to expand...
We are staying in the “fold” of Christ and He is keeping us safe and saved. As long as we don’t leave Him, we are secure. That’s why John said “be faithful unto death.”” We are being faithful to our Lord.
 
G

GWH

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Cameron143 said:
Does this mean that all of you are keeping yourself saved?
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It means we are obeying the numerous warnings in God's Word to persevere to the end rather than commit apostasy, and we hope you are doing the same.
 
B

Beckworth

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Cameron143 said:
So much for grace.
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It was the Grace of God that provided a way for us to be saved. His Grace provided the sacrifice and because of His unmerited favor to us He gave us His book that is our road map to heaven. His Grace is evident in all He has done for us. You would think no one would complain about doing something for Him.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Beckworth said:
It was the Grace of God that provided a way for us to be saved. His Grace provided the sacrifice and because of His unmerited favor to us He gave us His book that is our road map to heaven. His Grace is evident in all He has done for us. You would think no one would complain about doing something for Him.
Click to expand...
It's doing something that makes it not grace any longer. It's not that we do nothing. We do. We seek for His kingdom and His righteousness. We seek to walk in and be filled with the Spirit. But we don't seek to attain the approval of God with our effort, because our approval has already been attained by Christ.
Also, you are only accepted of God in and through Christ. You can't add to that. How will you present yourself more acceptably to God than in Christ?
 
G

GWH

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Cameron143 said:
It's doing something that makes it not grace any longer. It's not that we do nothing. We do. We seek for His kingdom and His righteousness. We seek to walk in and be filled with the Spirit. But we don't seek to attain the approval of God with our effort, because our approval has already been attained by Christ.
Also, you are only accepted of God in and through Christ. You can't add to that. How will you present yourself more acceptably to God than in Christ?
Click to expand...
Not sure why it is so difficult to get that faith is the horse that should be followed by a cart of good works in order to please God. If you think that once you believe then you can coast that cheapens God’s grace.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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GWH said:
Not sure why it is so difficult to get that faith is the horse that should be followed by a cart of good works in order to please God. If you think that once you believe then you can coast that cheapens God’s grace.
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I never said works don't follow salvation. I merely said works don't keep someone saved. You read your assumption in yourself.
 
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