Understanding God’s election
- Thread starter dougcho
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
This is a great argument, one i've never heard of before. Thanks for that buddy. You probably have been debating me in the other calvinist threads. I still want my other questions answered though, like why is God mad or frustrated at people NOT doing His will, not walking in His commandments when He could just give people the spirit to do it??? How can anyone be held accountable.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
Exactly. This is the accusation of Satan. God is evil, the author of evil, therefore God's judgement CANNOT happen.
Nobody is guilty of anything.
They are in for a surprise.
If you care to undertake a careful analysis of these Calvinist "sound-bites", it becomes obvious that the whole shebang
is mindless sophistry and a dog chasing its tail.
What's worse, its a useless waste of time.
Nobody is guilty of anything.
They are in for a surprise.
If you care to undertake a careful analysis of these Calvinist "sound-bites", it becomes obvious that the whole shebang
is mindless sophistry and a dog chasing its tail.
What's worse, its a useless waste of time.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
There you go buddy....
Evidently some of the ancient Israelites were fatalistic nutter Calvinists. And they were wrong too.
And the TRUTH is that they DID IN FACT have a FREE WILL CHOICE.
And they THEMSELVES chose to do THEIR WILL, and REFUSED to do the will of God.
Accordingly, they will be judged. And their judgement will be righteous.
Pay attention @Magenta @Cameron143 @rogerg @dougcho
[Jer 18:10 KJV]
If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
[Jer 18:11 KJV]
Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
[Jer 18:12 KJV]
And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.
Evidently some of the ancient Israelites were fatalistic nutter Calvinists. And they were wrong too.
And the TRUTH is that they DID IN FACT have a FREE WILL CHOICE.
And they THEMSELVES chose to do THEIR WILL, and REFUSED to do the will of God.
Accordingly, they will be judged. And their judgement will be righteous.
Pay attention @Magenta @Cameron143 @rogerg @dougcho
[Jer 18:10 KJV]
If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
[Jer 18:11 KJV]
Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
[Jer 18:12 KJV]
And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.
-
2
- Show all
Exactly how I feel. They have a few great proof-texts and arguments but if you take Scripture as a whole, so much of it just makes no sense on that calvinist lense. It makes everything into a meaningless soap opera where God is just playing games with people, pleading to them "REPENT" yet He is the reason they wont. Its so strange. Yet these people are held accountable for it?
-
1
-
1
- Show all
Just so you know, I don't identify as any "ist" or "ism". I identify as a Christian. This in spite of the fact that many like to label others so they can dismiss arguments carte blanche without ever having to consider them. I'm glad you considered the argument.
Your other questions show you are seeking for truth, and can't reconcile what you believe to be true concerning God and scripture and what scripture actually reveals. Every real truth seeker comes to this place and scratches their head. Am I misunderstanding scripture or am I holding some belief that isn't actually correct? This has happened to me again and again as I have pursued knowing God.
So let's examine:
Romans 1 clearly makes man accountable before God because of his sin.
God clearly has the ability to save everyone and no one can stop Him...Daniel 4:35.
Close to 200,000 people die everyday; many, if not most, being unsaved.
What are we to make of this?
I'm happy to share my thoughts concerning this. But perhaps you will prayerfully consider the question and reply before I do.
Your other questions show you are seeking for truth, and can't reconcile what you believe to be true concerning God and scripture and what scripture actually reveals. Every real truth seeker comes to this place and scratches their head. Am I misunderstanding scripture or am I holding some belief that isn't actually correct? This has happened to me again and again as I have pursued knowing God.
So let's examine:
Romans 1 clearly makes man accountable before God because of his sin.
God clearly has the ability to save everyone and no one can stop Him...Daniel 4:35.
Close to 200,000 people die everyday; many, if not most, being unsaved.
What are we to make of this?
I'm happy to share my thoughts concerning this. But perhaps you will prayerfully consider the question and reply before I do.
I disagree. Your argument hinges on whether or not God is required to offer salvation in order to bring condemnation. Where is this argument made in scripture?
I would argue that God has already brought condemnation on all mankind in Adam. Where do you find from scripture that God must offer salvation to any?
I would argue that God has already brought condemnation on all mankind in Adam. Where do you find from scripture that God must offer salvation to any?
Agree.
It is such a bizarre system, yes they need to hear the Gospel because they are God's selected.
Makes God a liar each time the Gospel is preached to the un-selected.
There is no way around that, that is why I refute the TULIP doctrine.
Oh of course they are not really Calvinists most will say, at the very least Sproul was honest about the true ramifications of this gross system!
It is such a bizarre system, yes they need to hear the Gospel because they are God's selected.
Makes God a liar each time the Gospel is preached to the un-selected.
There is no way around that, that is why I refute the TULIP doctrine.
Oh of course they are not really Calvinists most will say, at the very least Sproul was honest about the true ramifications of this gross system!
It isn't. And Adam and the Woman both FREELY confessed and repented and were saved by grace thru faith.
Consequently God Himself brought SALVATION to all those in Adam. And ANYONE can partake of this sure SALVATION that God prepared before the foundation of the world.
And you thought He brought condemnation from before the foundation of the world did you? Sick.
Consequently God Himself brought SALVATION to all those in Adam. And ANYONE can partake of this sure SALVATION that God prepared before the foundation of the world.
And you thought He brought condemnation from before the foundation of the world did you? Sick.
-
1
- Show all
Amen
It is a different god, when they start with God did not have to offer salvation to anyone then you know it is not the God of scripture.
As though God is lamenting man's horribleness but had to glorify Himself like some egocentric tyrant and so reluctantly He decided He would suffer on the cross and defeat death and claim a limited number as His own and well the trajectory of the others was already in place too bad, so sad.
What a horrible way to justify selection/election, just horrible.
It is a different god, when they start with God did not have to offer salvation to anyone then you know it is not the God of scripture.
As though God is lamenting man's horribleness but had to glorify Himself like some egocentric tyrant and so reluctantly He decided He would suffer on the cross and defeat death and claim a limited number as His own and well the trajectory of the others was already in place too bad, so sad.
What a horrible way to justify selection/election, just horrible.
-
2
- Show all
Again you bear false witness. I never said God brought condemnation from before the foundation of the world. I clearly said in Adam.
And where is your testimony of Adam and Eve in salvation found in the scripture? I can find God shedding blood and making them a covering, but I missed their confessions of faith. Perhaps you can point them out to me?
And where is your testimony of Adam and Eve in salvation found in the scripture? I can find God shedding blood and making them a covering, but I missed their confessions of faith. Perhaps you can point them out to me?
Not so. It can be true that God desires the salvation of all and still not all be saved. He can also be loving and not exercise love to all. He can also be just by exercising judgment to some while grace towards others.
Do all get saved even though it is an expressed desire of God? No.
Is hell an expression of the will of God? Hardly.
Does God exercise grace towards some and justice towards other? Yes.
Did God change? No. He remains both loving and just.
Do all get saved even though it is an expressed desire of God? No.
Is hell an expression of the will of God? Hardly.
Does God exercise grace towards some and justice towards other? Yes.
Did God change? No. He remains both loving and just.