Understanding God’s election

[Cameron143]

Right. And no, they were NOT more deserving.

In fact, Jonah complained bitterly (at first, but later repented!) that THEY WERE LESS DESERVING!

And this is PRECISELY how ANYONE is saved today. The Word of God is EVERYWHERE.
The "call" is being shouted from the rooftops the world over. The Holy Spirit has His witness and is now working in the world.

And ANYONE may thereby enter into the Covenant of life and peace.

Yet you Calvinists are SO SINISTER in your outrageous claims, that YOU SAY
that it is GOD HIMSELF who is preventing anyone from entering in!

Go ahead. Run out there and preach to the unsaved world that God Himself is either allowing or denying salvation depending upon choices that God made before they were every born, and that what the hearer does or doesn't do has absolutely nothing to do with anything as regards their eternal salvation.

Good luck with your harvest.

Your problem is you can only resort to name calling when you can't understand the scriptures. God sent Jonah that the Ninevites might be saved. They weren't going to come to God otherwise. Abraham didn't leave his home until God came to him and began a relationship with him. Noah didn't build an ark until God came to him.
It's always God who initiates relationship.

 

[cv5]

Your problem is you can only resort to name calling when you can't understand the scriptures. God sent Jonah that the Ninevites might be saved. They weren't going to come to God otherwise. Abraham didn't leave his home until God came to him and began a relationship with him. Noah didn't build an ark until God came to him.
It's always God who initiates relationship.

No. I don't have any Biblical comprehension problems.
And yes, God is always the prime mover as regards salvation, I have ALWAYS said so.

And the Calvinists once again lose this debate as they rightly should.

 

[cv5]

Your problem is you can only resort to name calling when you can't understand the scriptures. God sent Jonah that the Ninevites might be saved. They weren't going to come to God otherwise. Abraham didn't leave his home until God came to him and began a relationship with him. Noah didn't build an ark until God came to him.
It's always God who initiates relationship.

And another thing:

Calvinists must LIE when they preach (if in fact they ever do.....many "in the club" do not) to the unsaved world, saying that all men need to believe and be saved......but what they DO NOT say that it is IMPOSSIBLE for the intended audience to do so OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL.

When was the last time you told an unsaved person that it is IMPOSSIBLE for THEY THEMSELVES to believe?
Probably not very often.

 

[Cameron143]

And another thing:

Calvinists must LIE when they preach (if in fact they ever do.....many "in the club" do not) to the unsaved world, saying that all men need to believe and be saved......but what they DO NOT say that it is IMPOSSIBLE for the intended audience to do so OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL.

When was the last time you told an unsaved person that it is IMPOSSIBLE for THEY THEMSELVES to believe?
Probably not very often.

Again, not a Calvinist. You, like many people here suffer from CDS.
Grace and peace.

 

[cv5]

Again, not a Calvinist. You, like many people here suffer from CDS.
Grace and peace.

Calvinism is just a catchphrase. Calvin put a coat of wax on the existing shibboleth.

The error/heresies goes waaaay back to 400-ish AD.

 

[cv5]

And this is why God draws all people to himself

many are called but few are chosen

why are not all called chosen?

its easy, because many do not heed the call and reject Gods word

Agree. Nothing could be more obvious.

 

[cv5]

That depends on what definition of total depravity one employs.

Total inability? More unbiblical nonsense.

 

[GWH]

OK, how about commenting on the election Scriptures?

I'll take a stab at Ephesians 1.

In EPH 1:4-5 we encounter the doctrine of election, “He [God] chose us in him [Christ] before the creation of the world… He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ… In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will…”.

This doctrine has been problematically interpreted ever since the Catholic St. Augustine (d. 430) taught a deterministic view that influenced the Protestant John Calvin (d. 1564), who did not consider such passages as 1TM 2:3-4, “God our Savior… wants all men to be saved” and MT 23:37, “O Jerusalem… how often I have longed to gather your children together… but you were not willing.”

Such verses lead us to understand that it is Christ who was chosen and that salvation by means of faith “in Christ” is what was predestined. All people are called to accept Christ and God’s plan of salvation (cf. JN 12:32, “When I am lifted up, I will draw all men to myself.”), although many freely choose to reject or resist and thus are justly condemned to destruction in hell (JN 3:17-18). God has mercy on whom he wants, and He wants to forgive those who call on the name of the Lord (RM 9:18 & 10:13, cf. RM 11:32).

In EPH 1:9-11 Paul reveals the universal calling and grace of God as “the mystery of his will”: “to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.” (Cf. PHP 2:9-11, COL 1:26-27 & RM 3:29-30 & 4:16.) In 1:11-12, “we” refers to Christ’s Jewish disciples, in 1:13 “you” refers to all non-Jews or Gentiles (as specified in 2:11-13) and in 1:14 “our” refers to all who accept the “gospel of salvation” (1:13), thereby having the hope of heaven (1:18-20 & 2:6).

Paul refers to the new spiritual people as “the church” (ekklesia in Greek, 3:10, cf. 5:23-32, COL 1:18&24), which is God’s peace plan. The Old Testament distinction or “dividing wall” (2:14) between Israelites and Gentiles is erased when everyone accepts Christ (cf. COL 1:19-22). That the Gentiles were included in God’s purpose for creation and plan of redemption (2:14-20) was a mystery until God revealed it to Paul (3:1-9), although with hindsight we can see a few places in the Old Testament where such is prophesied (e.g., ISH 14:1, 42:6 & 45:22). The reason God chose Abraham was to provide Messiah for the world, and now that God’s purpose has been accomplished, “there is neither Jew nor Greek” (GAL 3:28).

 

[Cameron143]

Total inability? More unbiblical nonsense.

It doesn't mean total inability. It means in every aspect.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I missed the 2nd part of this. If someone gets saved, truly saved wherein the Holy Spirit takes up residence in an individual, they will be changed. It's not that the individual will never sin. Indeed they will. But they will recognize their actions as sin, and eventually repent. The chastening hand of God insures this.
What has happened in our time is that many have been told that if they will accept Jesus into their hearts, and say a sinner's prayer, they are saved. No mention of sorrow over sin and conversion are ever mentioned.
What we find is that there are many who have been told they are saved when they have not. So while they associate themselves with the church and the things of God, they remain unchanged because they have not been born from above.
How do we know? Because the same grace that brings salvation to an individual also sanctifies an individual. The same power that raised Jesus from the dead is at work in a genuine believer.

I agree with this

“the Holy Spirit takes up residence in an individual, they will be changed. It's not that the individual will never sin. Indeed they will. But they will ( can now choose to ) recognize their actions as sin, and eventually repent. The chastening hand of God insures this.”

Not against a persons Will though they have to choose because they hear believe the gospel. It’s a calling to all people to repent believe the gospel and come home to God it isn’t a group of strong men coming to bind us and take us against our Will and force repentance

It’s the gospel dear brother our Lord suffered so greatly he cried out in pain was ridiculed and mocked treated as a common sinner worse than a common sinner like murderers and rapists terrible sinners . He was spit on by Jews and gentiles mocked as lord and prophet and beaten by Jew and gentile . Accused and insulted condemned by mankind to die as a sinner

the message we find about and also from Jesus called the gospel is what calls people to him draws the ones who believe the gospel

“Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:31-33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s all explained well in scripture brother it doesn’t come down to us not being able to choose it comes down to us being made aware that we no longer have to serve sin we can follow the spirit now follow the lords ways with all of our heart and soul and mind and strength

he sure poured out all of his strength and heart and soul and mental strength for us remember all the details ? Jesus stressed to the point of sorrow so great he sweats blood Jesus asking the father if this cup may pass ? but if I must drink it thy will be done …. What a mental anguish beginning that night in the garden physical beatings and whippings and tortures and shames cast upon him ect

all because he loves human beings which he created and wants to restore us to our original purpose with him n life forever but ……..Jesus already did his part in spades we now are being called here brother this is what’s going to change us when this type of doctrine breaks through and becomes part of the things we believe is our role

“Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; and walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them. For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

( notice here brother he’s not saying they’ll believe because I pre ordained it but he’s saying go tell everyone about me , witness what you’ve all seen and experienced and heard to all people go preach to them what I taught you and I’ll give you even more later )

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

( the book of the acts of the apostles)

So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.”( acts )
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

theres a lot of “new “ doctrine these days I’m a sucker for the oldies In the Bible by men like Jesus and Peter and Paul and John and James the lords brother.

if we received his spirit we have an obligation now and it can go both ways still brother the thing is even though God knows the ones who will be saved he gave everyone the same message of salvation and whoever hears and believes it then will be saved again as the doctrine teaches us what salvation even is ect we can come to know Christ tbrough the gospel but he’s never going to force us to do good or evil he’s called us home and shined the light and given us the strength and faith but we often in the world won’t hear it we aren’t interested we love the world more than what he promises.

the gospel is like the sword that divides light and dark he speaks of saved or damned only by the gospel message

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Furthermore, not one person can even know if they have been elected by God, because one must persevere to the end. You may fall short which proves you were never elect.

it’s crazy how just one wrong concept gets the whole train off course

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Dang, that's a rather lengthy and unpleasant list.

I don't personally even BOTHER with anything presented in that style.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Jesus wants EVERYONE to be evangelized because the elect are in this group.

News Flash ... The elect need to hear the Gospel, so they can respond to it.
We are talking about HOW and WHY people respond with belief.
E.G. After God opened Lydia's heart, she responded with belief.

Second News Flash ... The non-elect need to hear the Gospel,
so they cannot honestly say to Jesus at the Judgment:
"No one ever told me about this! ... How can I be held responsible?"
(Jesus told me this was the 2nd reason that He was sending me to evangelize.)

Paul has it wrong then ?

“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-6‬ ‭

john certainly had it wrong too

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He sent preachers because wants people from any nation in the world from any generation to be converted from darkness to light not because some are already saved and some aren’t but because without Jesus everyone’s dead and doomed and dying everyone not just some of the poor losers but me too you too dead unless we accept the lord and his gospel

Jesus is the chosen one….anyone who is baptized in his name is then identified with him as chosen …..but like Israel was chosen and rebelled Its not against our free Will it’s an offer to us to choose life.

Those who choose life maybe they were “ pre ordained “ either way it doesn’t remove our accountability and responsability to do the things the gospel taught us it wouldn’t affect us in any way it would also negate the entire concept of someone repenting if thier sin believing the gospel and being saved As a result. Not really a concept I would go with

Jesus was ordained always so we want to be in christ the elect

“Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. …..he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭42:1-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s about Jesus and the gospel now we just need to hear and believe then follow the things we learn and believe ….

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I don't personally even BOTHER with anything presented in that style.

Always worth while to fire a shot though haha

 

[Cameron143]

I agree with this

“the Holy Spirit takes up residence in an individual, they will be changed. It's not that the individual will never sin. Indeed they will. But they will ( can now choose to ) recognize their actions as sin, and eventually repent. The chastening hand of God insures this.”

Not against a persons Will though they have to choose because they hear believe the gospel. It’s a calling to all people to repent believe the gospel and come home to God it isn’t a group of strong men coming to bind us and take us against our Will and force repentance

It’s the gospel dear brother our Lord suffered so greatly he cried out in pain was ridiculed and mocked treated as a common sinner worse than a common sinner like murderers and rapists terrible sinners . He was spit on by Jews and gentiles mocked as lord and prophet and beaten by Jew and gentile . Accused and insulted condemned by mankind to die as a sinner

the message we find about and also from Jesus called the gospel is what calls people to him draws the ones who believe the gospel

“Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:31-33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s all explained well in scripture brother it doesn’t come down to us not being able to choose it comes down to us being made aware that we no longer have to serve sin we can follow the spirit now follow the lords ways with all of our heart and soul and mind and strength

he sure poured out all of his strength and heart and soul and mental strength for us remember all the details ? Jesus stressed to the point of sorrow so great he sweats blood Jesus asking the father if this cup may pass ? but if I must drink it thy will be done …. What a mental anguish beginning that night in the garden physical beatings and whippings and tortures and shames cast upon him ect

all because he loves human beings which he created and wants to restore us to our original purpose with him n life forever but ……..Jesus already did his part in spades we now are being called here brother this is what’s going to change us when this type of doctrine breaks through and becomes part of the things we believe is our role

“Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; and walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them. For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

( notice here brother he’s not saying they’ll believe because I pre ordained it but he’s saying go tell everyone about me , witness what you’ve all seen and experienced and heard to all people go preach to them what I taught you and I’ll give you even more later )

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

( the book of the acts of the apostles)

So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.”( acts )
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

theres a lot of “new “ doctrine these days I’m a sucker for the oldies In the Bible by men like Jesus and Peter and Paul and John and James the lords brother.

if we received his spirit we have an obligation now and it can go both ways still brother the thing is even though God knows the ones who will be saved he gave everyone the same message of salvation and whoever hears and believes it then will be saved again as the doctrine teaches us what salvation even is ect we can come to know Christ tbrough the gospel but he’s never going to force us to do good or evil he’s called us home and shined the light and given us the strength and faith but we often in the world won’t hear it we aren’t interested we love the world more than what he promises.

the gospel is like the sword that divides light and dark he speaks of saved or damned only by the gospel message

I never said against their will. But I have said a person's will is subject to their nature.

 

[JohnDB]

I have not swamped the OP with a lot of Scripture quotations,
but hopefully you will recall the NT verses which confirm the following …

Man is doubly incapable of believing in Jesus and the Gospel
1 – Because of the disobedience (sin) of Adam and Eve,
all humans are born with an inherited sin nature,
and are bent on sinning instead of following God (Romans 3:9-18).
Having a saving faith is against their very nature!
2 - All unsaved humans are captive prisoners of Satan,
and are bent on doing whatever he wants them to do (2 Timothy 2:26).
Jesus came to set the captives of Satan free (Luke 4:18).
Having a saving faith is against our enemy’s plans for them,
which, of course, is spending eternity with Satan and his demons in hell.
If the God-worshipping Lydia (Acts 16:14) needs God to give her the necessary
faith to believe in Jesus and the Gospel, surely everyone does also!
Similarly, the “anyones” who believe in Jesus in verses such as John 3:16
are the ones whom God has given saving faith!

Father God elects (chooses) and calls whomever He wishes
Jesus says to the elect, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you ….” (John 16:15).
Surely, here is a strong hint that we should investigate this matter further.
Romans chapter 9 is the most famous proponent of God’s election …
“… that the purpose of election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls.
… So then, it is not of him who wills (to be elected, chosen, and called),
nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.” (Romans 9:11-16)
God gives grace to whomever He chooses, but no one deserves grace (unmerited favor)!
God gives justice to whomever He chooses, and everyone deserves justice!
God wishes that all could be saved, but it is not possible because He insists on His justice.
“You love justice and hate evil.” (Hebrews 1”9)
God is not willing that any (of us) should perish, but that all (of us) should repent …
… the “us” referring to His elect, who are promised salvation.
Christians are called to confess and repent of their on-going sins,
and the blood of Jesus will cleanse them of all their unrighteousness (1 John 1:7-9).

The reason why Father God chooses some, but not others
Father God chooses to elect some people for His great pleasure.
He chooses to elect some to demonstrate to the whole world
His great love, mercy, grace, etc. (Romans 9:23).
He chooses to elect some to be companions for His Son throughout eternity (Scriptural?).
Those not chosen are given justice, which sadly is what they deserve.

Those whom Father God gives to Jesus are guaranteed salvation
This is all about the unconditional security of the born-again believer.
Multitudes of NT verses are God’s promises of salvation given to His elect.
Surely, those of us who are born again should be continually praising God and
thanking Him for choosing us … and for the Holy Spirit sanctifying us unto holiness
… and for Jesus interceding for us before Father God in heaven.

Fatalism?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

That depends on what definition of total depravity one employs.

How could anyone repent ? And why would God call all men everywhere to repent because he’s going to judge all ?

“And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭17:30-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it doesn’t make sense to say this if we’re not capable or able to do good and evil by our own efforts and will judgement would become a silly concept of we’re being forced to do good or evil and then judged as if we did it ourself

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭

Do you see how the whole concept would become irrelevant and th same concept is repeated throughout the nt regarding judgement for our deeds that we ourselves do and words that we ourselves say?

Like this

“But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12:36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

wasnt really my fault but I have to know be judged as if it is , this isn’t how the lord is brother he’s how Jesus showed us

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I never said against their will. But I have said a person's will is subject to their nature.

Yes brother lol I thought I’d have a go again we’ve done this before about this same subject. Do you believe we have to choose and that anyone can be saved if they repent and believe the gospel ?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

No, He enables them by changing their nature. This is, in part, why believers become partakers of the divine nature.

Why did Jesus spend his time speaking to them teaching them about God ? Themselves ? How to live ? What to think and dwell upon ? How to respond ect ? And his apostles after why did they teach people with words from God ?????

“For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

remember what Jesus said the problem was to those who would listen ?

“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: all these evil things come from within, and defile the man.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭7:21-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Gods word can change our mind and heart there’s no magical thing it’s believing the message from God that changes us belief often I thought I knew something when I was young then I learned something in life and believed that new thing I learned and this then changed the course of actions …..

if I believe wrong my actions will be wrong , the gospel can change then I if ensuring we believe about God and mankind if we accept and believe it that’s what changes the Will

we learn what Gods Will is and then realize “ I’m not really totally living in Gods Will some of what I’m doing is not right “ the new belief will cause guilt ect because it’s changing our Will and desires and what we believe and know …..

 

[Cameron143]

Yes brother lol I thought I’d have a go again we’ve done this before about this same subject. Do you believe we have to choose and that anyone can be saved if they repent and believe the gospel ?

I believe anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved...Romans 10:13. But I also believe that no man calls Jesus Lord except by the Holy Spirit...1 Corinthians 12:3. So, given both those scriptures, how do you account for why an individual calls upon the name of the Lord?