I bet you can't show me in the Bible where Jesus comes before the tribulation. But I can show you in the Bible where Jesus comes after the tribulation. He comes at the last trumpet Revelation11. in the clouds.
Netanyahu
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Here's another one to seal the deal.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
So the 144,000 are protected from the wrath, so they have to be Christians.
“And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
So the wrath of God abides upon Everyone that doesn't believe in Jesus.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
So the 144,000 are protected from the wrath, so they have to be Christians.
“And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
So the wrath of God abides upon Everyone that doesn't believe in Jesus.
Yes. And this was already acknowledge earlier in this thread.
(We acknowledge they indeed come to faith in Christ [Yep, THEY ARE "BELIEVERS"!]--They come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture" and will exist [in their "role" shown in Rev] in / during the Tribulation Period [7-yr period].)
The "144,000" (of ONE nation--Israel) is set in contradistinction to the "a great multitude... of ALL THE NATIONS [plural]" vv.9,14.
The "144,000" (of ONE nation--Israel) are obviously specifically numbered; whereas the "a great multitude... of ALL THE NATIONS" are not (it specifically says of them "which no man can number")...
,,,and it is THESE who the text goes on to show who will be "coming out of GREAT tribulation [the SECOND HALF]".
They are ALSO "saved" persons (having come to faith also WITHIN the trib yrs, FOLLOWING "our Rapture"), but these are not said to be "OF ALL THE TRIBES OF ISRAEL" as the 144,000 ARE said to be (per v.4)
[nor does it specify that these are sealed-for-protection, as it says of the 144,000 of ISRAEL specifically]
While that is true ^ , there is also a specific, future, LIMITED time-period, referred to as "THE WRATH COMING" (1Th1:10)
which is (per context) an "eschatological wrath" (7-yrs'-worth) which will be "judgments" unfolding upon the earth,
commonly called the tribulation period (the specific, future, limited years immediately preceding and LEADING UP TO His Second Coming TO THE EARTH Rev19).
Hope that helps.
I still have my doubts. I think we've been grafted in to the 12 tribes, and these names are us. What's the flesh got to do with anything as soon as Jesus comes the flesh is dead and we get our new bodies. I just can't see it being right. We are grafted into the 12 tribes, not to one tribe, but to 12 tribes. As is only one tree. The twelve tribes. The flesh has got nothing to do with it. It's a spirit that counts. The flesh prophets nothing. It's us that will be sealed in the tribulation. And we will be protected from his wrath. We are the 12 tribes. We. are the 144,000. Jesus is naming us when he named the 12 Tribes. And the 144,000 will be the ones helping others. It's got nothing to do with the Jews of the flesh. This is the spirit. Jesus is naming us, The twelve tribes. Like it ought to be. Like it or not we are Jews by faith, whether it be Jew or whether it be Greek, or whether it be Gentile We are all Jews by faith. To take it away you're just robbing yourself of a blessing.
It just comes across to me that you are envious of them for God to single them out and be given special treatment.
But God has a very long history with this people (Hebrews -> Israelites -> Jews) - longer than with any other ethnic group and wants to work it out.
I actually find that comforting! If the Lord is like that with them, then He is like that with us on an individual basis.
There was a period in my life where I had a serious crisis of faith and foolishly rebelled against God. That resulted in me being cast out into the desert for quite a good number of years - but He promised that He would have His hand over me - meaning I'd never be abandoned - disciplined to be sure, but never abandoned.
What kept me from completely giving up hope was His specific promise to me - but also watching how the Lord deals with the Jews. If He hasn't given up on them, then I know He won't give up on me.
And it finally came to pass that God took me back and healed our fellowship. So if He did that for me, I know He will do that for the Jews too.
So I'm very happy to see that the Lord will present His 144,000 Jews to the world and even to us gentile Christians! It's telling me that despite rebellion among the Jews from within, and the murderous hate of those outside that want to wipe Jews off the face of the earth, God was able to always keep a remnant who loves Him and truly follows Him!
I think that's the point of the 144,000. So please don't be envious. Please don't try to take over their positions as if you're one of the 144,000 - God won't acknowledge you as one of them or let you take their place.
Just be happy for Him and for them!
D
daisyseesthesun
Guest
Flesh and heritage are different. heritage means a great deal to God as seen in Ezra 10 and the genealogy recorded in the bible, God even commanded his people not to marry outside of their own people.
That's one way of looking at it.It just comes across to me that you are envious of them for God to single them out and be given special treatment.
But God has a very long history with this people (Hebrews -> Israelites -> Jews) - longer than with any other ethnic group and wants to work it out.
I actually find that comforting! If the Lord is like that with them, then He is like that with us on an individual basis.
There was a period in my life where I had a serious crisis of faith and foolishly rebelled against God. That resulted in me being cast out into the desert for quite a good number of years - but He promised that He would have His hand over me - meaning I'd never be abandoned - disciplined to be sure, but never abandoned.
What kept me from completely giving up hope was His specific promise to me - but also watching how the Lord deals with the Jews. If He hasn't given up on them, then I know He won't give up on me.
And it finally came to pass that God took me back and healed our fellowship. So if He did that for me, I know He will do that for the Jews too.
So I'm very happy to see that the Lord will present His 144,000 Jews to the world and even to us gentile Christians! It's telling me that despite rebellion among the Jews from within, and the murderous hate of those outside that want to wipe Jews off the face of the earth, God was able to always keep a remnant who loves Him and truly follows Him!
I think that's the point of the 144,000. So please don't be envious. Please don't try to take over their positions as if you're one of the 144,000 - God won't acknowledge you as one of them or let you take their place.
Just be happy for Him and for them!
Another way of looking at it is who are the people of God? Who are the servants of God? We are the ones that are obedient We are the ones. that have studied the word. Why would God be interested in the flesh?
There is no envy on my part just concerned. that there's some false doctrine floating about. that might hinder us from taking our crowns, Or a rightful place. It also makes the Gentile Christians look like secondhand citizens, If you think about it. are we not the people of God? And yet, there's all this. put in the JEWS first. And that comment will probably be turned into hate of the Jews somehow. something's iffy about the whole thing. Lots of emphasis on the flesh. for some reason lots. of emphasis on the old way. Instead of the new way with Jesus being the master. and Christians be in the elect. you can turn into envy if you like, but there's no envy. Just real concern.
I love the Jews as much as anybody. but I'm talking about doctrine. and who comes first? love for Jesus and his disciples come first. Why bother putting any effort in If it's the Jews that are going to be sealed in the tribulation? Don't you want things to be at least equal Don't you want things at least to be well balanced? Don't. you want things to be at least a fair.
There's really no other way of looking at it. The 144,000 are Jews by birth, not gentile. God is the one who set this down in the Bible.
Insisting your view will not change His mind. I don't know why you would not accept what God spelled out in the Bible?
If it makes you feel any better, God loves His gentile believers just as much as He does His Jewish believers. Just because He has presented the 144,000 Jews doesn't mean He loves His gentile people less.
I put in all the years of study. and all the years of preaching the gospel and winning souls for the Lord. And what do I get? I get no protection during the tribulation. That's according to you.There's really no other way of looking at it. The 144,000 are Jews by birth, not gentile. God is the one who set this down in the Bible.
Insisting your view will not change His mind. I don't know why you would not accept what God spelled out in the Bible?
If it makes you feel any better, God loves His gentile believers just as much as He does His Jewish believers. Just because He has presented the 144,000 Jews doesn't mean He loves His gentile people less.
When I was a kid. we were the elect of God. And now we're not..
And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
You do understand with that belief you are not protected from the plagues of God..
I do accept how God's laid out in the Bible,There's really no other way of looking at it. The 144,000 are Jews by birth, not gentile. God is the one who set this down in the Bible.
Insisting your view will not change His mind. I don't know why you would not accept what God spelled out in the Bible?
If it makes you feel any better, God loves His gentile believers just as much as He does His Jewish believers. Just because He has presented the 144,000 Jews doesn't mean He loves His gentile people less.
But I see him talking about it in the spirit, where you see him talking about it in the flesh.
We ("the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY") will not be present on the earth "during the tribulation [7-yr period]".
CONSIDER:
--the thing that was PROMISED (in "the things WHICH ARE" section of Rev) in Rev3:5a, "He that overcometh, the same shall be [future tense] clothed in white raiment [leukois himatiois - https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rev/3/1/ss1/t_concif_1170005 ];" is SHOWN as having been fulfilled in chapter 4 ( in "the things which MUST come to pass IN QUICKNESS" section; shown fulfilled BEFORE the opening of the FIRST SEAL), where it states in v.4, "And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, HAVING BEEN CLOTHED in white raiment [himatiois leukois ; PERFECT participle] ; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.";
--and they are SHOWN to be SAYING, "hast redeemed US to God by Thy blood, out-of EVERY...";
--and they are SHOWN to be wearing the ALREADY-AWARDED "crowns / stephanous" (which Paul said he would be awarded "IN THAT DAY" [not the day of his DEATH], and "not to [him] ONLY"!)
Now, explain to me HOW THIS CAN BE THE CASE ^ , when in your viewpoint's scenario, you say we ("the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY") will be ON THE EARTH going THROUGH the time-period of JUDGMENTS unfolding up the earth (the "IN QUICKNESS" time-period, aka the 7-yr Trib)?
The bullet points above prove that notion to be incorrect.
You need to stop being jealous or envious toward them. There's no reason for it. God loves all His people both Jews and Gentiles equally in the same amounts.
God did promise that He will protect us too:
Revelation 3:10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.
Pre-tribbers think that God will just whisk us physically away to safety, but this promise given to the church at Philadelphia actually went through severe persecution with no physical rescue whatsoever. So what was actually promised is that if they endured, God will keep their saving faith intact. Eleven of them were martyred and none of them fell away from the faith. After all, that is the most important thing to God to have our saving faith intact, not our physical bodies.
So that's how God chooses to protect the rest of us. It's not any less than what God wants to do for the 144,000. Their protection just looks more spectacular and special is all, but that shouldn't matter. The fact that a gentile Christian still remains with the Lord despite the loss of all things and receive execution will glorify God and draw some unbelievers to get saved. It is also a testimony to the world so when they are judged by the Lord, they can't say they were innocent.
That isn't true. The Holy Spirit is our seal! Remember, the Lord collects His people AFTER the tribulation but before God commences His wrath on His enemies. That is the post-trib stance.
If the 144,000 are still here during God's wrath, it's a good reason for God to place His seal on them.
I'm not the only one who sees it this way. Many people godlier then me, with more knowledgeable authority also see it as physical too. Oftentimes if people spiritualize a thing in the Bible, it's because they don't want to accept it as physical. Like with the mark of the beast for example. That spiritualized belief can hurt them in the end if they don't recognize the actual mark of the beast when it's enforced.
However, can spiritualizing away the 144,000 hurt one? I don't think so. I'm not even sure if you'll actually meet the 144,000 in this age. However, you WILL see them definitely after this age when this whole ordeal is over. So be nice to them!
Bear in mind that after [or in] EACH of the 7 letters to the churches (Rev2-3... in "the things WHICH ARE" section), EACH ONE is followed by [or includes] the phrase / sentence, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches" (7x) - https://www.blueletterbible.org/sea...saith+unto+the+churches&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1
So, apparently (according to this ^ ), what was said to ONE CHURCH was meant for ALL OF THE "CHURCHES" to hear...
(and I would say, "to hear" THROUGHOUT the entire "THINGS WHICH ARE" span of time, which doesn't come to an end UNTIL "the things which MUST come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" commences ["AFTER [those]"]--Rv1:1 / 1:19c /4:1--that's the 7-yr Trib period on the earth... when WE will not be present on the earth, but UP THERE... *prior to* His opening of the FIRST SEAL at the START of those Trib years)
I agree. NONE of the churches were physically taken out harm's way when persecution started. We won't be whisked away either until after the great tribulation.
Would you say that you are a part of the [ones to whom the following is addressed] "churchES":
"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches"
(or are you saying these are in no way applicable... i.e. that you are not in any way associated with "the churchES"?)
Now, while I AGREE with you that "persecutions and tribulations that YE ENDURE" (said to the Thessalonians, 2Th1:4) is TRUE OF US ALSO, at various times (throughout the entire time that we, "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" has existed on the earth since the first century [Eph1:20-23 "WHEN [as to its existence]"]), I must DISAGREE that we will be present on the earth during the "future, specific, LIMITED time-period [commonly called the '7 yr Trib']" which will be the unfolding of JUDGMENTS upon the earth [by means of JESUS HIMSELF commencing them via His opening of the FIRST SEAL, Rv5:6-7/6:2]; and THIS SPECIFIC TIME PERIOD is WHAT is being spoken of [to ALL "the churchES" in "the things WHICH ARE" section] in the wording of 3:10, which states, "[Because...]..., I also will keep thee from [out-of / out-from] the hour of temptation/trial which shall come upon all the world [that's that SPECIFIC, FUTURE, *LIMITED* time-period (we call the 7-yr Trib)], to try them that dwell upon the earth." )
That is distinctly DIFFERENT from the "every day" trials [persecutions and tribulations that ye endure] that we ALL, as believers [the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY] experience (in varying degrees and even "off and on," so to speak) throughout Church history.
THIS TEXT [3:10] is not speaking to that, but to the future SPECIFIC "7 yr Tribulation Period" (aka the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect OF "the Day of the Lord" JUDGMENTS)
I believe what you have written here ^ is contrary to all of the biblical evidence stating otherwise (regarding "us" / "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"... and "our Rapture [/ SNATCH; G726]"... which pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" and not to all other saints of all OTHER time-periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints... none of whom were promised "rapture [/SNATCH; G726]"
)