The rapture? The comimg of Christ.

[Psalm1]

The secret rapture doctrine contradicts the words of Christ in Matthew chapter 13 when He said that the wheat and tares would grow together until the "end of the world" and then would be separated. According to the two stage teaching of His coming, both groups would not grow together until the end of the world.

The righteous would be separated from the wicked seven years before the end. And what about the promise of the resurrection? Christ said, concerning the righteous, "And I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40). No one denies that this means the last day of the world. Yet Paul declares that the saints are caught up to meet the Lord at the same time the dead in Christ are raised.

don't miss this the saints that are living are called up at the same time that Jesus raises the dead. Don't seperate this event.

He says, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17).
Please keep in mind that Jesus called this resurrection the "last day." But how could it be the "last day" if this gathering of the saints takes place seven years before the end of the world? And how could the "last trump" sound if it really wasn't the very last moment of time? Can you imagine the graves opening and the righteous rising and no one knowing that it had occurred? And consider this additional testimony of the Word of God: ...............

Revelation 6:16,17 When the wicked see Christ come, they cry out to the rocks and mountains, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
Matthew 24:27 "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
1 Corinthians 15:52 "For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised."
Psalm 50:3 "Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence."
Revelation 1:7 "Every eye shall see him. "
Matthew 24:30 "Then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
Matthew 24:31 "He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (This is clearly the time when Christ comes to gather His saints.)

The word is clear but people always find a way to twist things.

In order for any of that to have a hope of traction zero, you would need all the pretrib rapture verses removed from the Bible.
You twisted God's word, then said others are twisting it.

 

[Psalm1]

I agree, but most on this forum will point to Dan.9:27 and give you a wrong interpretation.
No need to argue with them. It is a waste of time.

The GT begins and ends with the AC.
The halfway point is about 3.5 years.
So it is a seven year period.

 

[Psalm1]

What is the first resurrection?

when Jesus comes

1Co_6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
will = future

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Luk 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

The resurrection of the just is not the same as the resurrection of the unjust.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

the first resurrection is the one we need to be part of.....

Jesus is the firstfruits of the first resurrection.
That automatically makes the first resurrection more than one part.
Anytime you see "firstfruits" it automatically refers to a harvest and the many parts of harvest, if left out, leads a person into an open interpretation where a mixture is the outcome.

 

[ewq1938]

In order for any of that to have a hope of traction zero, you would need all the pretrib rapture verses removed from the Bible.

There are none already in the bible. The only rapture verses in the entire bible are all post-trib because that is when the rapture happens.

 

[ewq1938]

The GT begins and ends with the AC.
The halfway point is about 3.5 years.
So it is a seven year period.

Christ said the trib would be shortened. It was 7 years but now has been cut in half to 42 months, found in Rev 11, 13.

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus is the firstfruits of the first resurrection.
That automatically makes the first resurrection more than one part.

Wrong. Jesus is not the first fruits of the first resurrection of Rev 20. He is not part of that group that resurrects because he resurrected a LONG time before they do. The first resurrection in Rev 20 is not two or more parts.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Wrong. Jesus is not the first fruits of the first resurrection of Rev 20. He is not part of that group that resurrects because he resurrected a LONG time before they do. The first resurrection in Rev 20 is not two or more parts.

Revelation 20:5b (your verse ^ ), where it says, "THIS is the resurrection the FIRST [ADJ]"... the word "THIS" is POINTING BACK TO what had just been stated in v.4b which verse pertains ONLY TO the saints having been "beheaded / martyred" in the LAST 3.5 YEARS of the Trib (when the "mark" will have been in effect). It [v.5b] is not referring to any other saints but "THIS".

However, it is NOT true that those "last-3.5-yrs-ONLY-saints" are the ONLY SAINTS to be "resurrected" FOR the MK age! NO!




[It IS only what 4b and 5b are speaking to, however... but that's not all that the rest of the text speaks to!]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^
1 Corinthians 15:20 - "[ 1Co 15:20 ] But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits [G536 - singular] of them that slept."


And He did this ON "FIRSTFRUIT" [Lev23:10-12] (on that very day).






[John 5:29 says there are TWO KIND of "resurrection": "resurrection OF LIFE" and "resurrection OF JUDGMENT/damnation" - https://www.blueletterbible.org/sea...ia=resurrection+of+life&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1 ]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Christ said the trib would be shortened. It was 7 years but now has been cut in half to 42 months, found in Rev 11, 13.

I disagree with the notion that the time-period-amount HAS BEEN "CHANGED". It is still the length of what it has been prophesied to be.


So where these verses say,

Mat 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, G2856 there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. G2856


Mar 13:20
And except that the Lord had shortened G2856 those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened G2856 the days.


... the word (G2856) can mean "CURTAILED".


"Except those days should be CURTAILED, there should no flesh be saved [!]..."



... which means, if those [tribulation-period-HORRIBLE-] days were not 'lopped off' when prophesied to (but allowed to CONTINUE instead [i.e. longer than prophesied]), no one would survive! And it is God's purpose to have some 'still-living'-persons [/saints (elect)] to ENTER the MK age [in mortal bodies] otherwise the prophecies concerning it would not be fulfilled... and we know they MUST be! " (lol)







[I think it's possible that perhaps "ewq1938" has blocked me, and thus would be unable to see any of these posts where I'm addressing his points. Not sure of that, but it seems so to me, based on previous weeks where he doesn't seem to SEE any of my posts addressing his; So if anyone cares to "reiterate" these points, so that he can SEE them via your posts, that's alright with me! ]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I disagree with the notion that the time-period-amount HAS BEEN "CHANGED". It is still the length of what it has been prophesied to be.

Where "ewq1938" mentions the 3.5 years and references "Rev11, 13," those speak to the SECOND HALF of the "7 year period" (i.e. starting at the MID-trib point); but there are 3.5 years (the FIRST HALF) that PRECEDE that... and ALL related passages AGREE.



The "whose COMING / ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / PAROUSIA" (of the man of sin) 2Th2:9a (when he is "revealed") takes place 3.5 years BEFORE he does the "who SITTETH in the temple of God" thing at MID-trib, 2Th2:4b.

This corresponds also with how Daniel 12:1-4[,6-7] (MID-trib) commences 3.5 years AFTER the Daniel 11:36 (his ARRIVAL) point in time. (Same in Dan9:27a and 9:27b!)


And also how SEAL #1 (the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:1-3 & Matt24:4/Mk13:5]" OF "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that Jesus spoke of), the rider on the wht horse WITH A "BOW" ("bow" often meaning "DECEPTION") takes place 3.5 years prior to what ewq1938 is referencing (MID-point) by his pointing out "Rev11, 13"

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Everything from Rev4:1 onward (to Rev19) [or from 6:2 unfolding upon the earth] is what takes place IN / DURING / WITHIN those "SEVEN YEARS," per what "Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1" informs us

("things which MUST come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN; 1:1]")




So "ewq1983" is basically misplacing THE FIRST HALF (of those "7 years") [chpts 4-5 and 6-10;... but "ewq1938" only recognizes "11,13" as its STARTING POINT. Nope.]








[It is NOT the case the the "SEALS" began to be opened back in the first century, as the Historicists have it. No.]

 

[ewq1938]

I disagree with the notion that the time-period-amount HAS BEEN "CHANGED". It is still the length of what it has been prophesied to be.


So where these verses say,

Mat 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, G2856 there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. G2856


Mar 13:20
And except that the Lord had shortened G2856 those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened G2856 the days.


... the word (G2856) can mean "CURTAILED".


"Except those days should be CURTAILED, there should no flesh be saved [!]..."

That still means to be shortened. The trib is not the same length it once was going to be which is why we see it as only 42 months rather than 84 months.

G2856
κολοβόω
koloboō
Thayer Definition:
1) to mutilate
2) in NT: to shorten, abridge, curtail
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a derivative of the base of G2849

 

[ewq1938]

Where "ewq1938" mentions the 3.5 years and references "Rev11, 13," those speak to the SECOND HALF of the "7 year period" (i.e. starting at the MID-trib point); but there are 3.5 years (the FIRST HALF) that PRECEDE that... and ALL related passages AGREE.

No, Rev 13 shows it is the start of what's known as the trib. The beast arises and has 42 months. Rev 11 also speaks of 42 months and shows the end of the trib so the total length is 42 months, half of the original length.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

No, Rev 13 shows it is the start of what's known as the trib.

No, that's when GREAT tribulation [the SECOND HALF] starts (not when the tribulation period IN ITS ENTIRETY begins, which is back at SEAL #1).



So Rev13 is the same time-slot as both Matt24:15,21 [/2Th2:4b / Dan9:27b / (and around) Dan12:11... etc],


...but that's not the BEGINNING OF the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN; Rv1:1] time-period [per Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1], which will have started way back at SEAL #1 [/ Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 - "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE ['a certain one' BRINGING DECEPTION]"--2Th2:9a / Dan11:36 / Dan9:27a "For ONE WEEK [7 YRS!]"]...



... and this is PROVEN by what Paul states in 1Th5:1-3, that "the Day of the Lord" will ARRIVE "exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman... OF the beginning of BPs [PLURAL] that JESUS HAD SPELLED OUT!
(the INITIAL "birth PANG" OF those, IS "SEAL #1 at the START of the "IN QUICKNESS" time-period)







On another point, the wording that Matt24:22 speaks to ("THOSE days"), refers SPECIFICALLY TO (and only of) the "days" which FOLLOW AFTER the "AOD" [MID-]point in the chronology (i.e. "GREAT tribulation," that is, THE SECOND HALF"--3.5yrs)... THOSE days will be the ones (being spoken of in this verse) are what are said will be "G2856'd"... and we know THAT AMOUNT has NOT BEEN CHANGED whatsoever! It speaks NOTHING of the "days" [the FIRST HALF] which PRECEDED them... when vv.4-14 pertain-- https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/mat/24/22/p0/t_conc_953022 notice the word "G1565 THOSE [days]"... pointing back to the wording "then shall be GREAT tribulation" [THAT time-period, alone, is what the word under present discussion pertains to... NOT "original 7 yrs" now being "G2856'd" TO 3.5y... NO... That is to MISAPPLY THE WORD!!)

 

[ewq1938]

No, that's when GREAT tribulation [the SECOND HALF] starts

This two halves of the trib adding up to the same old length of time since Daniel is a fictitious invention of man. It is not biblical. The trib was to be 84 months/7 years, Christ said it would be shortened, and surprise surprise Rev tells us it is half the length, shortened in half to 42 months.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The trib was to be 84 months/7 years, Christ said it would be shortened, and surprise surprise Rev tells us it is half the length, shortened in half to 42 months.

That's not what the text of Matthew 24:22 says though.


V.22's "THOSE days" (pointing back to v.21's "GREAT tribulation" which commences at the "AOD" point in time), is what the G2856 verb refers solely to

(and yet it is the SAME duration of time it has always been prophesied to last [see Dan12:1,6-7 [/7:20-25,27]--SAME TIME-FRAME and duration]: 1260 days / 'a time, times, half a time' / 3.5 yrs [/ 42 mos]... NOTHING CHANGES, time-wise!)






[None of that has anything to do with THE FIRST HALF, because Matt24:22 ["THOSE days"] speaks ONLY TO the matter of THE SECOND HALF, that which FOLLOWS the "AOD" point in the chronology, not what come BEFORE IT]

 

[ewq1938]

That's not what the text of Matthew 24:22 says though.

It is what the passage says and Rev 13 confirms the shorter length.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

It is what the passage says and Rev 13 confirms the shorter length.

What you are saying is misleading, because Jesus' words in Matthew 24:22 refers ONLY TO the time-period FOLLOWING the "AOD" (they are told to "FLEE" when they "SEE" it), vv.15,21.


That is the ONLY time-period of which the "G2856 koloboō [verb]" word He uses in v.22 pertains.



You are trying to BROADEN its application to be referring to the entire "7 year" period, but Jesus did not apply this word to that [broader-time-frame] whatsoever.





("THOSE days" [to which the verb "G2856" SOLELY PERTAINS] = ONLY THE TIME-PERIOD THAT FOLLOWS the AOD point in the chronology [from v.15,21 on...])

 

[ewq1938]

What you are saying is misleading

I'm sure you have that backwards as you do the length of the trib and timing of the rapture. Jesus spoke of the entire trib being made shorter in length of time and as I said, Rev 13 confirms this as the entire length of the trib is 42 months.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Jesus spoke of the entire trib being made shorter in length of time and as I said, Rev 13 confirms this as the entire length of the trib is 42 months.

So you are saying that you DISAGREE that Jesus' words in VERSE 22 refer to what He was speaking of in v.21 (the period of time that STARTS with v.15's circumstances)?? :

Mat 24:15
¶ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand [/standing] in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
Mat 24:16
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17
Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18
Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19
And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20
But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22
And except those days should be shortened [G2856], there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened [G2856].








"THOSE days" (v.22), and the VERB "G2856" in the same verse, refer ONLY to that which takes place ONCE THE "AOD" takes place... It does NOT reference ANY TIME PRIOR to that point. And there are "1260 days / 3.5 yrs / 42 mos" FROM the point in time of THAT. Jesus, HERE, where He uses [and applies] this verb "G2856," is NOT AT ALL referencing what takes place PRIOR TO the "AOD".

Do you AGREE or DISAGREE?








["shortened / curtailed [G2856]" (according to Jesus Himself) ONLY EVER spoke to the SECOND HALF / 3.5 YRS / what FOLLOWS the "AOD" point in the chronology--THAT time-frame ONLY is what He's saying will be "shortened / CURTAILED [G2856]" and NO OTHER TIME-FRAME BUT THAT... and yet it hasn't changed from its original length]




"GREAT tribulation" has ONLY EVER referred to the LAST 3.5 yrs leading up to His Second Coming to the earth Rev19! (It has NEVER referred to the entire "7 yr" period!)