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What is wrong in this thread is that there is a colossal misunderstanding concerning Bible prophecy, history, and definitions of terms being used when comparing the two.
"apples and oranges" (in a way)
And - if you do not understand both Bible prophecy and history well enough - you would do well to "stand down" from any ranting about the views of others until you have given yourself over to some serious prayer, thorough study, and in-depth research...
(Because, you really do not know what you are talking about - you think you do - but you do not - you are like a parrot that only knows to say what it has heard - what it has been told.)
What I see in this thread is a "complete disconnect" between one group of people who are trying to get another group of people to understand the real actual truth about the world they live in and another group of people who are misguided by "many assumptions" and not listening even a tiny little bit to the one group of people who are trying to help them understand the truth about the world they live in.
I suggest that everyone swallow their pride and be willing to learn from each other - turn the thread into a no-disdain no-rant discussion - throw "debate" away for now - work to get everyone "on the same page" first. Otherwise, the discussion will not be worth anything and will continually "not get anywhere"...
Do not "debate" anything until you are in total agreement on the base-level foundation of real actual facts concerning the thread topic issue(s).
Spouting a bunch of malarky without putting forth something that shows why you believe it will never get anywhere in this thread.
Don't believe me? Well - just stay on that track and see what it does-and-does-not accomplish...
(What you will accomplish will be to get the thread locked - unless everyone learns how to have a decent-and-proper discussion of/on the topic.)
Discuss the related Bible prophecy.
Discuss the related history.
Debate nothing.
Can you do that?
Prove it.
"Food for thought..."
"apples and oranges" (in a way)
And - if you do not understand both Bible prophecy and history well enough - you would do well to "stand down" from any ranting about the views of others until you have given yourself over to some serious prayer, thorough study, and in-depth research...
(Because, you really do not know what you are talking about - you think you do - but you do not - you are like a parrot that only knows to say what it has heard - what it has been told.)
What I see in this thread is a "complete disconnect" between one group of people who are trying to get another group of people to understand the real actual truth about the world they live in and another group of people who are misguided by "many assumptions" and not listening even a tiny little bit to the one group of people who are trying to help them understand the truth about the world they live in.
I suggest that everyone swallow their pride and be willing to learn from each other - turn the thread into a no-disdain no-rant discussion - throw "debate" away for now - work to get everyone "on the same page" first. Otherwise, the discussion will not be worth anything and will continually "not get anywhere"...
Do not "debate" anything until you are in total agreement on the base-level foundation of real actual facts concerning the thread topic issue(s).
Spouting a bunch of malarky without putting forth something that shows why you believe it will never get anywhere in this thread.
Don't believe me? Well - just stay on that track and see what it does-and-does-not accomplish...
(What you will accomplish will be to get the thread locked - unless everyone learns how to have a decent-and-proper discussion of/on the topic.)
Discuss the related Bible prophecy.
Discuss the related history.
Debate nothing.
Can you do that?
Prove it.
"Food for thought..."
@GaryA says he has it. But when it comes time to prove it, he falls flat on his face. Over and over again.
As for "dispensationalism" (whatever that is supposed to mean), certain geopolitical elements MUST be in place and a tribulation Temple is one of them.
In order for.....drumroll.....the Second Coming to happen.
Do these people make an accurate critical evaluation of the whole picture and process related to the Second Coming?
No.
Do they believe in the Second Coming?
Evidently not. Not the TRUE scenario of Second Coming anyways.
I listen to @GaryA prattle on and it is all sound and fury signifying nothing. Just hopeless man.
The rest busy themselves with conspiracy theories about Zionism and "fake Jews". What a waste.
I've gotta answer this although it's off-topic, as its important information against disease propaganda.
Turns out some guy called Kock back in the late 1800s invented four criteria designed to establish a causal relationship between a microbe and a disease. Koch's four postulates are (from Wikipedia):
1) The microorganism must be found in abundance in all organisms suffering from the disease but should not be found in healthy organisms.
2) The microorganism must be isolated from a diseased organism and grown in pure culture.
3) The cultured microorganism should cause disease when introduced into a healthy organism.
4) The microorganism must be re-isolated from the inoculated, diseased experimental host and identified as being identical to the original specific causative agent.
You may ask "Well, who is this Koch guy to define what is necessary to establish this relationship between disease and microbe?" but if you think about it, Koch was really only outlining the scientific method as it would relate to germ/virus theory. Logically, if the microbe theory of disease is true, we would need to prove the above, including a control experiment.
Now, it turns out a virus has never been isolated from a diseased organism (i.e. as demonstrated with an electron microscope) and grown in a pure culture, to be able to prove that viruses even exist as such. Virologists have invented a term called "isolation" which relates to virology to try to get around this, but the fact remains the virus is never isolated (in the true sense of the word) from the diseased cell material - so the question remains whether it's ever actually a so-called virus causing the disease, or just the diseased cells of the other animal.
The theory of viruses at present is really like blaming firemen for starting fires, as wherever we find a fire, we often find firemen. Probably a more realistic theory is that "virus" particles found in sick patients are a body's defense mechanism against critically damaged cells (e.g. due to poisoning) combined with dead cell fragments. These "viruses" are an effect of the disease, not the cause of disease, and they have never been - by themselves - proven to cause diseases in other organisms.
I've never read the whole of this book - just bits and pieces, but its written by guys who were onto this topic well before I was, and who are far more learned.
https://www.amazon.com/Virus-Mania-Continually-Epidemics-Billion-Dollar/dp/1425114679
A read of the comments is probably all you need to get the gist of what the book is about, and this was published some 10 years or so before the covid debacle.
Here you go @Moses_Young . Ran out of edit time.
@Moses_Young said:
"or are they God's chosen people who will be automatically saved because of their lineage that has been unable to be verified for near 2000 years since the temple was destroyed?"
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A faulty assumption. One of many you promulgate incessantly.
As for blessing the Jews, we Christians do what God is doing:
Bless Israel by endeavoring to PRESERVE the line of Jacob for future glory and service.
Not terminate their very existence.....which is the desire of Satan.
When? When does the nation Israel as a corporate body finally repent and enter into glorious service?
Well, this has been explained exhaustively in all of its resplendent effusive spectacular epic redemptive majesty many many times.
But.....it seems like this phenomenon prevails among the naysayers.
Act 7:57
Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
I actually oppose it relentlessly, for which I endure criticisms of being antisemitic and a Jew-hater, some within this very thread. Perhaps take a look at others who share your belief, and the direction they are taking it?
John Hagee would perhaps be one of the big promoters of the heresy I speak against, and looking at his credentials (from Wikipedia), he's certainly one of yours (i.e. a Zionist and Rothschild State of Israel supporter).
• Founder and chairman of the Christian Zionist organisation Christians United for Israel, which lobbies members of the United States Congress using a biblical stance for promoting Christian Zionism;
• Stated that he believes the bible commands Christians to support the [Rothschild] State of Israel;
• Claimed that a reference in Jeremiah 16:16 to "fishers" and "hunters" was symbolic of positive motivation (Herzl/Zionism)and negative motivation (Hitler/Nazism) respectively, both men were sent by God for the purpose of having Jews return to Israel, and he suggested that the Holocaust was willed by God because most Jews "ignored" Herzl.
Speaking of faulty assumptions, this is another of yours. Speaking against the crimes of the Rothschild State of Israel, and/or the West's complicity in its crimes by supporting such a criminal state with weapons and money to carry out its crimes is actually a blessing to all people - both Jew and Gentile - and has nothing to do with terminating the Jews very existence (although no one can really define what a Jew is since the destruction of the temple in 70AD).
Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Philippians 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
2 Timothy 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
James 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
Philippians 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
2 Timothy 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
James 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
@Moses_Young said:
"or are they God's chosen people who will be automatically saved because of their lineage that has been unable to be verified for near 2000 years since the temple was destroyed?"
===================================================================================
Good grief man....I know you oppose it.
You ASSUME that Christians today AGREE WITH THIS. AND THEY DO NOT.
I do not. Paul doesn't. No legit Christian does.
Give your head a shake man.
What disturbing is that what is implied in many of the posts on this thread is the desire to wipe out all Jews today because of some conspiracy theory about Zionism. And that the Jews today are super incredibly evil blah blah blah.
Bloody outrageous.
You are the judge of absolutely......nothing.
Not the "crimes" of the Rothchilds, the "criminal state" of Israel. Nothing and nobody.
The Church only has the authority to judge matters WITHIN the Body.
Without we have no right to condemn anybody.
And if you have fantasies of world peace any time soon.....you are in for quite a shock.
Yes, the Holy Ghost is restraining ultimate sin (the advent of the AC).
Yes saved Christians today are salt and light.
But this restraining will be removed in due time and shortly IMO.
Hope you are not around to suffer the consequences buddy.
You are supporting it. Perhaps only half-way, and not to the degree of heresy that John Hagee has overtly stated. But scripture clearly states there is no Jew and Gentile. You are trying to claim that there is.
Scripture clearly states that Christ is the only means of salvation. Your side has been claiming that to highlight the crimes of the Israeli government, or to advocate for withdrawal of support due to these crimes is anti-semitism and hatred of Jews, and an affront to God because of the lineage claimed by those who call themselves Jews (and their potential future salvation due to this lineage). Exactly the opposite. God has nothing to do with godless acts of murder, and you yourself admitted you do not know who the true Jews are which you believe God will save in the end. How then can you think it is acceptable for Christians to support such satanic behaviour?
Give your own head a shake, man. Your arguments are not consistent.
If you actually believe this to be the case.....then how can you rightly say that YOU are Jewish?
You HAVE stated very clearly that you are of Jewish stock....correct?
And now that you are a believer, you are a "true Jew". Correct?
And another thing: if you demand that a Jew cannot be properly defined or accurately determined since the destruction of the Temple,
then there has not been a "true Jew" since 70AD.
Yup. No "true Jews" today. Not you, not anybody. Never going to happen. Ever. Impossible.
Frankly I am shocked that nobody else has picked up on this ridiculous absurdity that you speak of.
But then again, good detectives are hard to find on this thread.
"You ASSUME that Christians today AGREE WITH THIS. AND THEY DO NOT.
I do not. Paul doesn't. No legit Christian does."
I also suggest that definitions of terms need to be ironed out and agreed upon - it will be a "Babel" thread until they are - "no two ways about it"...
A large part of why the discussion in this thread has been what it has is because there are multiple definitions being used for words like 'Jew' and 'Israel' - which is why you cannot agree upon anything.
There are [at least] three different definitions/forms of 'Jew' and [at least] two different definitions/forms of 'Israel' being used in this discussion.
And, no one wants to accept or validate the existence of any definition(s) but their own.
You will not have any success in this thread until you are willing to do so.
Everyone in the discussion needs to be "on the same page" - please stop the mudslinging and be willing to work together on the definitions - you should be pleasantly surprised at just how much misunderstanding will disappear like a vapor if you will do this first - if you really actually care.
If you do not really actually care, then you are simply trolling the thread IMHO.
Apparently not...
SMH 
I have my doubts about reaching a consensus because it requires accepting certain historical facts that some of us aren't willing to accept. However, I'm willing to try.
The following is an interview of Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro by The Palestine Pod, a podcast created and hosted by two Jewish people.
I figure the most definitive...erm...definition of Zionism is best heard from the mouths of the people it supposedly was created for.
DISCLAIMER: He is speaking from the perspective of a Jewish Rabbi (follower of Judaism), not a Christian scholar. Also, I am only referencing certain portions of this interview and do not blindly endorse his full perspective on all matters they address.
Supercut of his full position in the first minute of the video:
"Zionism is its own religion..."
His definition of Zionism:
14:52-19:44 - "Nationalism is another name for Zionism; Jewish Nationalism...[Zionism says] 'You are not a people enjoined by god to fulfill this religion, these religious laws. You are a nation'...But instead of creating a new nationality out of nothing...[the zionists erased] Jewish identity. 'We're going to take their history, change it a bit. We're going to take their self-image; take Jewishness'...They revised all of Jewish history. They had this nonsense [idea] that Jews for thousands of years were looking for national self-determination, which is not true. We were looking for a messianic renewal of the world...[We were never praying for the] Jerusalem we have today, [rather] a Jerusalem that's governed by a resurrected king David...where the wolf lays down with the lamb..."
He continues by explaining from his perspective that being a Jew isn't a nationality or ethnicity but an identity defined by a religion, which - from his perspective - is accurate to say as a follower of their religion. He says, "It's difficult to believe that Ivanka Trump and Sammy Davis jr...are from the same ethnicity". He adds that Zionism manufactured the rules of Jewish ethnicity (maternal lineage argument) and that it's even difficult for zionists to wrap their heads around.
My definitions for these terms will always come from scripture, but I believe this confusion was necessary to fulfill zionists' plans.
It's an interesting interview.
---
To the thread: Do we agree with this seasoned rabbi's definition of Zionism? If so, he defines it as a hijacking of identity and a departure from the Torah (i.e., laws) and from the hope for a resurrected messiah to govern them...completely contradictory to scripture, both Old Testament and New Testament.
I think the problem with the prattling of @GaryA,@Moses_Young , @HeIsHere, is the propensity to inject anti-rhetiric into a thread such as this.
It is profoundly obvious they know nothing about history, the scriptures,contemporary events that have escalated the
I think the issue within and at the genesis of the prattling @GaryA,@MosesYoung, who cannot at all be taken seriously when claiming to be Jewish save for maternal blood, and @HeIsHere, is that they post with the wilful intent of injecting conflict and promoting the antagonist platform into this thread.
It is profoundly obvious they know nothing of history,Bible scriptures, or the contemporary metric that has escalated the Palestinian Israel conflict since October 2023.
And yet as you rightly observe they prattle on. And the common thread is their rhetoric is anti-Israrl,anti-Jew(s).
It wouldn't surprise me if they are not actually 3 individuals. Because the hatred and ignorance follows a consistent pattern.
And what is worse is,they post this in a community dedicated to our Jewish Yeshua,Jesus,Christ. Who is God,The Word, made flesh as a mortal born into a Hebrew family from the maternal line of King David. As prophesied.
Christian Identity faithful insist Jew is not heritage or religious but spiritual. That the chosen people if God in scripture are solely spiritually applied to gentiles. Not actual Jews. Whom they condemn as Zionists.
Their ignorance of Scripture is profound in that distinction. I think most have never read the Old Testament.
They merely regurgitate the propaganda they post in excerpts they've gleaned from CI sites like that which exists as the warped brain child of a former convict who dared rewrite the Bible from his anti-Semetic perspective.
1Corinthians 2:14 IMO is reiterated everytime any of those aforementioned three members post. As are other passages that warn against evil in our midst.
They don't believe they will face God and answer for every word.
Yet.
Most people seem to want to believe that either all or none of End Times Bible prophecy has occurred at this time in history. And, this is mostly because they want to believe that it all occurs in a short period of time - which is an incorrect assessment of what scripture actually indicates. Like a lot of things in the Bible, the real truth lies "somewhere in the middle" of the scale - whereas, people tend to be at one extreme or the other on the scale.
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In my "study experience", I have determined that one of the best ways to look at eschatology is based on 'event' terms:
1) What happens before what?
2) What happens after what?
3) What happens at the same time as what?
By "ordering" the events in this fashion, you get a clear picture of "what can and cannot be" according to scripture.
~
Why might I say something like this?:
"Revelation 13:7 is referring to something in the past - Revelation 13:8 is referring to something in the future."
Because, the scope of the passage covers a long period of time.
~
The Bible tells us exactly - in relative 'event' terms - when the 'great tribulation' (that Jesus spoke of) starts - and, when it ends.
History has shown us with certainty that the 'starting' mark-in-time was circa 70 A.D. - but, has yet to show us the 'ending' mark-in-time.
~
End Times Bible prophecy has been unfolding over a long period of time and not a short one. And, it is neither all past nor all future. Some has been fulfilled and some is still yet to be fulfilled.
This is God's time scale - End Times Bible prophecy unfolding over a long period of time and not a short one.
If you (whoever) try to fit all of it into a short period of time - you err greatly and will not see "the whole picture" properly.