What Changed?

[PaulThomson]

I do, if by total depravity one means every facet of man.
The problem with discussing such things is often found in the terminology applied and the different definitions each applies.
It would be better either to use biblical terminology or give definitions before a discussion.
Another problem that arises is the insistence upon labels.

No. You do not believe that men are totslly depraved.

Totally:
completely; absolutely.
"the building was totally destroyed by the fire"

Depraved:
morally corrupt; wicked.

You believe every facet of man is imperfect; not that every face of man is absolutely completely morally corrupt/depraved/evil/icked.

 

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour. Show one example of me culling a scripture. Disagreeing with your interpretation of a scripture and offering an alternative contextualised interpretation, is not "culling" it.

That's exactly what you did with passages like Jer 17:9 and/or Isa 1:5-6 because these passages strongly support the biblical doctrine of Total Depravity. You basically accused me of interpreting them out of context by saying that those passages only applied to apostate, rebellious Israel, thereby clearly implying that the entire non-covenant pagan world was more righteous than Israel! I countered your allegations by pointing to the antediluvian world and asking if the people at that time, whose "thoughts and intentions of their hearts were continually evil" were more righteous than Israel? Is that why God destroyed virtually the entire human race -- because the antediluvians were more righteous, more spiritual than Israel? The pagans were less hostile toward their Creator? I also recall appealing to the postdiluvian world with Ps 2: 1-6, since the entire world is at enmity with God.

And even more recently you most certainly tried to "cull" Job's unflattering words about the human race by totally discrediting him, clearly implying that Job's words could not be trusted by citing Job 38:2 Yet, not even God went to that extreme when he spoke of his faithful servant (Job 42:7). So, in order to discredit Job, you interpreted 38:2 out of its larger context.

It seems that you have a selectively short memory as well.

Cull:
reduce the population of (a wild animal) by selective slaughter.
"he sees culling deer as a necessity".

You cited verses from Jeremiah out of context. I added context and justified a different interpretation from yours. That is not "culling".

I added chapters of context around Job 38:2. You are being very dishonest to say I interpreted it out of its larger context.

 

[Cameron143]

No. You do not believe that men are totslly depraved.

Totally:
completely; absolutely.
"the building was totally destroyed by the fire"

Depraved:
morally corrupt; wicked.

You believe every facet of man is imperfect; not that every face of man is absolutely completely morally corrupt/depraved/evil/icked.

I rest my case. I believe the totality of man was corrupted by sin. I also believe his nature has been corrupted to the point where he is slave to his fallen nature and unable to do anything "good" as God defines good.

 

[Magenta]

I rest my case. I believe the totality of man was corrupted by sin. I also believe his nature has been corrupted to the point where he is slave to his fallen nature and unable to do anything "good" as God defines good.

That is certainly what the Bible teaches...

 

[Genez]

No! Total Depravity would leave God with powerless, helpless people to save, such as the Israelites in Egypt whom God RESCUED from the hopeless environment of slavery.

What does God save? The entire man?

 

[Genez]

I rest my case. I believe the totality of man was corrupted by sin. I also believe his nature has been corrupted to the point where he is slave to his fallen nature and unable to do anything "good" as God defines good.

You are just not getting what was said.

If you were totally depraved?
What could God save of you?

For some reason...
It's only our soul He saves.
Not our body.
Can you figure out why that is?

There is a divine logic behind it.

Our souls are not innately depraved.
They end up being as depraved, because until Grace jumps in the soul is enslaved to the flesh.
It's in the flesh where man's depravity has it's roots.

And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. ​

As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. ​

For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh. ​

For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. ​

For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do​

—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no ​

longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. Romans 7:16-20​

Paul differentiated between his flesh, and his real self (his soul).

As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. ​

In Christ ...............

 

[Cameron143]

You are just not getting what was said.

If you were totally depraved?
What could God save of you?

For some reason...
It's only our soul He saves.
Not our body.
Can you figure out why that is?

There is a divine logic behind it.

Our souls are not innately depraved.
They end up being as depraved, because until Grace jumps in the soul is enslaved to the flesh.
It's in the flesh where man's depravity has it's roots.

And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. ​

As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. ​

For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh. ​

For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. ​

For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do​

—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no ​

longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. Romans 7:16-20​

Paul differentiated between his flesh, and his real self (his soul).

As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. ​

In Christ ...............

You are alot like him...neither of you believe anyone can understand anything that is different from what you believe.

 

[Magenta]

You are alot like him...neither of you believe anyone can understand anything that is different from what you believe.

People somehow completely fail to grasp what it means to have one's heart circumcised...

 

[Cameron143]

People somehow completely fail to grasp what it means to have one's heart circumcised...

This and that life is only in Christ.

 

[Rufus]

Limited Atonement
Omni-faceted Imperfection
Unnconditional Election
Perseveranc eof the Saints
Irresistible Grace

No one actually believes in Total Depravity.

Which means that most believe they are not helpless and in a hopeless, and that there is something good in them. God help such people who call evil good and good evil!

You believe God decreed from eternity past that Israel would rebel and spend 40 years being culled of an almost an entire generation and there was nothing the Israelites could do to change God's decree. You are being so dishonest here,

We have discussed God's decrees and man's responsibility previously. The ancient Israelites knew good from evil and willingly sinned. Judas was destined to betray Christ in eternity, yet after his dastardly deed he neither blamed God or the devil who possessed him, but rather was overcome with his own very real personal guilt. He KNEW he had sinned against Jesus! You keep ignoring the fact that all the actors on God's world stage WILLINGLY play the parts that God, the Playwright and Director has assigned for them.

 

[Rufus]

PaulThomson said:
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour. Show one example of me culling a scripture. Disagreeing with your interpretation of a scripture and offering an alternative contextualised interpretation, is not "culling" it.



Cull:
reduce the population of (a wild animal) by selective slaughter.
"he sees culling deer as a necessity".

You cited verses from Jeremiah out of context. I added context and justified a different interpretation from yours. That is not "culling".

I added chapters of context around Job 38:2. You are being very dishonest to say I interpreted it out of its larger context.

You added selective passages and none of the passages were the one I used to support my argument. You basically condemned Job as being an unreliable source of truth -- something God himself did not do.

And I did not quote verses from Jeremiah or any other book out of context -- unless you don't believe the Jews are part of humanity. Do you believe that Jews put on their pants differently from the rest of us?

 

[Genez]

You are alot like him...neither of you believe anyone can understand anything that is different from what you believe.

If one has truth, that's the way it will always look....

 

[Cameron143]

If one has truth, that's the way it will always look....

That's one scenario. Another is if one is proud you will find the same.

 

[Genez]

That's one scenario. Another is if one is proud you will find the same.

Someone is always going to be seen as the proud one, as well.

 

[Genez]

That's one scenario. Another is if one is proud you will find the same.

For someone who condemns it openly...

You sure do a lot of judging.

 

[Cameron143]

For someone who condemns it openly...

You sure do a lot of judging.

And you receive alot. Doesn't judgment come back to those who judge?
Your discernment is poor, and you lack self awareness of your shortcomings. This is a symptom of pride.

 

[Genez]

And you receive alot. Doesn't judgment come back to those who judge?
Your discernment is poor, and you lack self awareness of your shortcomings. This is a symptom of pride.

Have peace..... No sense arguing with someone who wants to.

 

[Cameron143]

Have peace..... No sense arguing with someone who wants to.

I have both peace and joy. It was you who responded to my post. I don't address you first anymore. There's a reason for it.
Grace and peace.

 

[Genez]

I have both peace and joy. It was you who responded to my post. I don't address you first anymore. There's a reason for it.
Grace and peace.

You have done what you are doing to me also to others as well.

Its how you get triggered....

 

[Cameron143]

You have done what you are doing to me also to others as well.

Its how you get triggered....

If I'm wrong it's easy enough to show. Someone who is humble will have no problem not having the last word. Just don't answer this post.